Help with RST 2 1/2 low pressure loads for 12 gauge
 

Hello All
This is my first thread and new to the form. I recently purchased my first vintage sxs and will never go back. It shoots 2 1/2 inch low pressure loads. I have a bunch of empty hulls I would like to reload but knowledge of old loads is scarce. Anyone have any recipes they wouldn't mind sharing with me . I shoot skeet for practice. I hunt Quail ,Dove and Ducks down here in Texas. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks Kirk
P.S. There is something special about pulling one of these old guns out for a fine morning hunt. See you in the fields !

First I'll assume you already reload shotgun shells. Many guys shoot 2 3/4'' shells in 2 1/2" chambers. Pressures will only go up a couple of hundred pounds. But if you want to reload 2 1/2' that's fine. I've talked to the guys at Claybuster wads and he said if it was him, he wouldn't worry about using wads meant for say 1 1/4 oz loads with a formula for 1 or 7/8oz loads if the loads were down in the 7500psi and under. That way they would fit in 2 1/2" shells. Any data for 2 3/4 will work for 2 1/2 if you can get everything to fit. That's where the shorter cushion wad comes into play. In my Fed papers cut to 2 1/2 I use the CB-3118 wad meant for 1 1/4oz but load 7/8oz of shot, 16.5grs of 700X and a mild primer like Win or Cheddite will give 6500psi and 1150fps. In a Rem hull it's 7600psi. You could also substitute fiber wads for the correct load height [ for a good crimp ] and have even less pressure. Fiber wads will usually give about 10% less pressure, not always, but never more pressure. Go online to any of the powder companies for load data for the 2 3/4 and feel safe in using it. You'll just have to figure out a way to make it fit. One more option is to use a roll crimp - it takes about a 1/4' less shell to make the crimp. https://www.precisionreloading.com/ has the best roll crimp tolls that go in a drill. Good luck. Oh, my keyboard took a crap and prints only the foot symbol and not the inch symbol.

Just reread your question - I believe RST shells are straight wall hulls, so anything for Federal hulls will work. I know CBers claim their wads for Win and Rem will work in a Fed hull, but then why would they make a wad for straight walled hulls ? The ones for Win and Rem fit quite loose and you'd reduce pressure. I've always used the wads meant for straight walled hulls in them - after all, men like a tight fit.

Im sorry Paul for being so green. No I hadn't loaded shotgun shells but I do load for my 45 auto. So any load for a 2 3/4 shell will be the same pressure. velocity etc if put in a 2 1/2 inch shell??? I know crimped there is only an 1/8 inch difference in length. I never thought of it that way. but I don't know anything about shotgun powders and wads . I only know that the recipes call for specific wads , powder etc. Even with my 45 I started with Bullseye and when it was extinct (now come back from the dead) I switched to Titegroup and I will never go back. I like less kick and all my 45 loads are down there. Ill look at some light 2 3/4 loads. Thanks for the input I may even try that load you use.

No, pressures will be a bit higher, but nothing to worry about if you load at low pressures, say 7500psi and under. With pistols, a grain can make a big difference. We have a little more lee way with shotguns seeing how our pressures are under 10,500 [ max for a 12ga ]. There are many loads with IMR 700x that are from 5000 to the 7500 range with a 7/8 or 1oz load [ all anyone needs ]. Many modern reloaders consider 5000 to 6000psi too low a pressure for good burns. And some are dirty but who cares, we're not shooting autos. What gun do you have ? Are you sure it has 2 1/2" chambers ? And some of our members shoot modern high pressure ammo in their Parker Damascus barrel guns with no ill effects. Most claim it has to be low pressure. To each their own, but a little more info on your gun would help. And someday maybe you'll also step up to a Parker.

Its a Fox Sterlingworth 1929.... I had to go the inexpensive route, but I treat her like shes my one and only. Since I was a kid I wanted a sxs. Don't know why but finally got one . Its been refinished which kills the collector value , but shes beautiful.
T like 5000 to 6500 loads . do you know of any for 2 1/2 cheddite ?? I thought about lengthening the chambers but I wont change this old gun. If you cant hit them with a 2 1/2 you cant hit them with a 2 3/4
Cant wait to draw down on a duck this fall.

I shoot an early parker hammer gun with Damascus barrels and 2 1/2 in chambers. I load on a MEC 600 jr with a short kit. Cheditte hulls, 17.6 gr american select, clay buster CB1100-12 wad, 7/8 oz shot and Nobel sport primers. The crimp looks fine and the pressure is under 7000. I have shot this combo for several with no issues. I am sure there are other loads that will work just as well. Carvel

I left out YEARS after several in the previous post.

Great. I will probably try that one. Thanks Carvel. Sorry for the slow response. We got hammered here in Texas with hail this morning. Do u know the velocity by chance?? How does that mec Jr. do on sizing the high brass ??

The MEC jr does not size the brass. I use a mec sizer in a separate operation. Carvel

the MEC 600 Jr resizes on the first station in combination with the depriming

2 1/2" Loads
 

Kirk,

Here’s what I’ve been doing to load 12 gauge light loads in 2 1/2" RST straight walled hulls for light 1/2 and 3/4 ounce loads. Actual weights are 0.50 and 0.72 ounces from my tweaked MEC charge bar.

I use the neon green Clay Buster CB6100-12 wad intended for one ounce loads. I use a 0.125" thick card wad in the bottom of the shot cup for my 1/2 ounce load. Nothing needed in the bottom of the shot cup for my 3/4 ounce.

In both cases, the petals are a little (1/16") higher than the shot volume. I have trimmed off a little of each petal before loading but I'm thinking that it is not necessary??

I use once plus fired RST 2 1/2" hulls and they look fine when finished, nice 6 point crimps, not dished or crushed.

I use a MEC Sizemaster for my loading and for the crimp start and final crimp stations, all that I did was use a 1/4" thick wood spacer at those stations to raise the hull to the 2 3/4" height. (In the pictures below, note that I have my MEC Sizemaster sitting in a low walled box to contain those in evitable lead shot spills.)

My load data:
½ ounce: RST 2 ½” hulls; Winchester 209 primer; 14.2 grains of Alliant Extra Lite powder (MEC #26 bushing); CB6100-12 wad; 0.125” card wad in bottom and ½ ounce lead shot.
3/4 ounce: RST 2 ½” hulls; Winchester 209 primer; 14.6 grains of IMR 700X powder (MEC #25 bushing); CB6100-12 wad; no card wad in bottom and 0.72 ounce lead shot.

Have shot both loads on the skeet and sporting clays field and they sound and feel great. Very satisfied.

I may send some test loads to Tom Armbrust but I don't think he does any testing in cold Illinois weather. I use basically the same recipe in loading standard 2 3/4” hulls and have had those tested by Tom Armbrust with the following results for ½ ounce loads with Win hulls, Win primers, 14 grains EL powder (MEC #26 powder bushing) average of 5100 psi at an average speed of 1367 fps. The ¾ ounce loads are from published 700X recipes and are around 6500 psi and 1250 fps.

I get my card wads from Craig Smith of Circle Fly Wads in PA and they cost about 1.5 cents each including postage per 1000.

Here's a thread from last June on a similar subject: http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16638

Bill Jolliff

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Thanks Bill..... Looks like I am in business. I really like light loads. I think this will do great.They look great and at those pressures my old gun will smile. If I could get it to kick like a 22 rifle I would. lol I am not to familiar with shotgun powders or loading shotshells. But I will definitely give this one a try. Have you ever tried putting more shot in your 3/4 reciepe? like maybe 7/8 Just wondering I have shot the Falcon ultra light and although I like the minimal kick they seemed to break clay in to big pieces. Maybe my aim. Second thought I am pretty sure its my aim One other question have you ever loaded these with fiber wads. I kinda like the expanded pattern I get. Plastic wads at 30yds are only about 24inches in dia. with my gun with Holland & Holland fiber wads they are about 32 in. dia. Is 25 about where I should want to be?? 30 yards seems pretty far for such a small pattern.

Thanks for the Help

The mec jr DOES resize the brass, just a different way. It has a sizing ring where as the grabber, sizemaster, 9000, and supersizer have a collet with fingers. Federal and all the foreign shells are a straight walled hull where the Win and Rem have a tapered wall. The CB-1100 was made for the TW hull. CB also makes a wad for the SW hull even though they claim the other wads will work in the SW hull, which they will - they're just a loose fit and allow some blow by. If you load the powder and take the shell out of the press and shake it with your finger over the ends you probably find powder has got by the wad. Next time you buy some wads do yourself a favor and buy the other wads - believe they're a CB-2100-12 for straight walled hulls.

Kirk,

I have not tried anything heavier than 0.72 oz in my 2 1/2" loads. I'm using these loads in a 1900 vintage H&H hammer gun with steel barrels that has the 2 1/2" chambers. The gun is Nitro Proofed for 1 1/8 oz loads according to the proof marks but I'm just sticking with the light loads for that gun.

You could easily go to 7/8 ounce with that wad (neon green Clay Buster CB6100-12). Might have to bump the powder up a tad tho. Should be published recipes for that load. I just haven't tried it.

I have an early A grade 12 gauge Fox that I also use the same basic loads for but use the 2 3/4" Win AA and Remington tapered wall hulls and the appropriate CB0175-12 wads. Same Circle Fly wads in the bottom of the shot cup to take up space.

And for your 12 gauge Sterlingworth, 2 3/4" shells are fine for that gun. No need to go to 2 1/2". And as you mention, you like them "light".

I have not used fiber wads but as you found out, those loads would tend to open up more than shot cups.

As an aside, I load some 12 gauge loads using un-popped pop corn kernals for shooting red squirrels in the barn. Don't have to worry about shooting holes in the roof. And they actually work good for skeet station 8 shots. I use 12 grains of that Alliant Extra Light powder, cut the bottom of a CB 0175-12 wad to use over the powder and the rest pop corn. Can get 0.3 ounces of pop corn in that load. I've patterned them in the snow, and as you point out, opens up the pattern. But fine for anything less than about 20 - 25 feet.

Speaking of Alliant Extra Light powder, it's been kind of hard to find but is a great light 12 gauge light load powder. IMR 700X is good too for slightly heavier loads: 0.6 and 0.72 ounce loads.

Hope some of this helps.

Bill, I use a similar popcorn load on bears that cannot seem to stay away from the house. At 25 yards a shot between the hind legs makes them huff a bit but they learn the lesson.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

i certainly hope you wear your Genesee beer t shirt then :corn:

only seems appropriate :cheers:

Luckily Gary, we don't have to worry about bears.

Has it ever just made them mad and then looking for a fight? Then I guess, you just switch from pop corn to lead.

Gotta wear my Genny Beer T- Shirt!

Bill thanks for the info... I think I can get several loads out of this info. I am looking forward to experimenting ( within reason) the info I got on this form. I really didn't know there were so many different ways to load a shotgun shell, wads, hulls, powder, crimp and on it goes. Oh well I guess figuring all that out is half the fun of reloading. Keeps it interesting.

Kirk, if you buy wads for the SW hulls like RST, the Fed hulls are the same so your wads will work in them also. They lay all over at my gun club. Not many seem to load them. Bill, my loads with the CB-3118 wad stick up into the crimp area - they just fold over with the crimp - I don't trim them. Also, your little home made spacer- all you need is a spacer cut the right shape to fit under the shell hold down plate. That way you can still use it to locate the shells under the drop tube, first and final crimp. I also straighten out the fingers on the shell plate so it fits flat. On the back side of the press table is usually a 1/4/20 hole [ or make one ] . I run a 1/4-20 screw through the spacer and plate into the table to keep everything down . Sometimes the plate wants to lift on the upstroke after the final crimp.

Just wondering if someone knew I found a nice load I would like to try but it calls for a gualandi gu1222 which I guess they don't make anymore. Could I substute a fiber wad and still remain at or under the pressure and velocity . Also does anyone know does fiber wad cause more recoil than plastic wads. And thanks all for schooling me a little.

Yeah Paul, I don't think those wad petals being too long is a problem. I have trimmed them but I should follow your method and just crimp the darn things the way they are.

I checked my MEC Sizemaster - no holes to accommodate a hold down screw, or two. May think about making one, probably smaller tho (easier drilling) like a 6 - 32.
OH Osthaus/Rick Losey showed me his MEC Short Kit Plate and I traced it and made a 1/4 inch spacer as you describe. Those tabs in the hold down plate in their original position tilts that spacer plate. Could straighten those tabs out tho to make it sit flat. Definitely worth looking at.

And Kirk, I haven't used fiber wads but wouldn't think they would affect the pressure that much. If they did, wouldn't think it would be much, positive or negative.

Fun stuff.

Guys. After getting some great ideals from everyone on this site. Anxious to take on this custom shotgun reloading operation in my garage lol. I began to look at prices and wow. I figure roughly $7 a box. Am I missing anything. I saw Winchester steel shot in Walmart the other day for $5.49 a box and I already have my hulls. Anyone done any research on buying the shells over the counter , taking them apart and using the components to reload their own lol lol. It may be worth looking into. See you in the field. Thanks everyone for help

call Ballistic Products, gualandi wad numbers are gauge plus height - so that is a 12 gauge - 22mm

i believe - its the same as this (its what i have been using)

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/CS1...tinfo/072CS12/

Kirk,

For loading these light loads, the economics of it is only part of it. I estimate that my 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" 0.5 and 0.72 ounce loads are costing me around $4.00 - $4.25 per box of 25. To get down in that neighborhood you have to get your components at realistic prices and usually in quantity.

Hulls at no cost, lead at around $42.00 for 25 pounds, primers at around $33.00 per 1000, powder at around $20 - 22 per pound and wads at around 2 cents each. My filler wads for 1/2 ounce loads are from Circle Fly at around 1.5 cents each.

Alliant Extra Lite powder that I use for the 1/2 ounce loads is tough to find. I had to go the internet route to find an 8 pound jug and bite the bullet to have it shipped. The powder, shipping and haz-mat fee put the cost of that jug at about $180.00 or about $22.50 per pound. But when I can load 500 rounds or 20 boxes of 1/2 ounce loads for one pound of powder, I'm happy with that.

RST in PA is a good source of light 12 gauge loads at around $10.50 per box for light stuff and up from there. Shipping is an extra cost. If you go to any of the side by side shoots around the eastern part of USA, they may be there and you can save shipping.

As for finding a good buy on ammo and taking them apart for the components, I think kinda risky unless you find a published recipe for using those components. AND DO NOT SHOOT STEEL SHOT IN YOUR STERLINGWORTH.

You might research using the quite available IMR 700X powder that works fine for 3/4 ounce using Claybuster CB0175-12 wads, Winchester primers, Winchester AA or any current Remington hull - Gun Clubs, STS's, Nitro Gold, etc. For 7/8 ounce do the same thing but get your self some CB0178-12 wads.

You probably won't save much money but you'll be able to load up some light stuff that would other wise cost you more $$.

Besides, it's fun.

Bill you are right. Loading for my kimber 45 was fun and a get away from the hustle and bustle from the work day. I am sure this will be the same. I was just joking about cutting up factory shells for the components and I'm sure the recipe for those are in a vault somewhere. But I think I will try one of your loads and carvels I also got one from Paul I think I will try. Tom shared one with me I will share 2 1/2 rst hulls Winchester 209 primers 1 oz shot 20 gr. International clays gualandi gu 1222 wad 1200 fps at 6800 psi. Sounds like a great hunting load. Look above for locating the wad. My gun has 30 inch barrels with full and mod. I think. I know I have a full. So for skeet I may look for a 3/4 or 78 load with fiber wad for a bigger pattern. A gunsmith who is well known down here Saadi he could lengthen the cones and open the chokes. But I can't change anything about this gun. I know as far a Sxs its a plane Jane gun but it's my first. Feels great and I feel the same when I'm shooting it. By the way no I won't ever shoot steel. I bought 4 boxes of bismuth from rst at $60 a pop. Just so I wouldn't be setting on the bank this fall with nothing in my hands anyone that might have a good lp fiber wad 3/4 or 7/8 oz. let me know. I'm not good enough of a shot for 1/2 oz. Yet :). Anyway have a great day. See you in the field

Thanks for the info on the wad OH Osthaus that is one hunting load I will use a lot.

Kirk, it's hard to find low pressure loads and or 3/4 or 7/8oz loads. I get primers for 112/5000, powder 108/8lbs, wads 85/5000, and shot for 35/25lbs. I can load 3/4oz 12ga shells for around 3.50/25. Once you accumulate enough stuff you can reload about anything you want, not wait for it to go on sale, or hunt around for some special load you want. Try finding 10ga 2 7/8" shells. I can load them for just a bit more [ I get free once fired shells ] at 1oz because the wads cost more. Kirk, go ahead and sub in fiber wads for plastic, your pressure will drop because the gas seal is not as good. Circlefly has what you need. Get some .125 over powder cards, 1/2 " fiber cushion wads, and might as well get some .028 over shot cards in case you want to roll crimp - they look really cool - amaze your friends with them. Get the 1/2" cushion wads so you can split them to get the right height of your components for a good crimp. CFs web site has reloading info. Bill, that's why I put a screw through the spacer and shell plate - the shell plate would want to come up sometimes on the up stroke after the final crimp after I straightened the tabs. That's why I use the CBers wad - much cheaper than BPI wads. Your right about the CB-0175 wad - makes a nice 3/4oz load. Kirk, if you can't find 3/4oz loads for a powder you can get just use the data for 7/8oz load and go to 3/4oz. CBers has a paper with the wads giving different loads with different powders. Win, Rem, Cheddite primers and a couple of others will all load the same. The Fed 209A and CCI 209M are hot primers and you'll have to drop about .5 grs if subbing one of them.

Paul does the mec Jr. Do a good job resizing the 12 gauge hulls ? I know they are cheaper than sizemaster.

Paul I think we can get most powers down here. We have a shooting club on the other side of town. And everyone down here has gone gun nuts. Mostly pistol and rifles that can shoot 20 miles with a 2 in group and holds 75 rounds in the clip. I looked for Cbers. What is that. I googled it with no results never mind I see clay busters lol. I am learning

Paul. I checked out circle fly. I'm sure I will be ordering fiber also. From what I understand you to say. I just drop my powder in the hull then cut fiber wad so the shot is flush with the fold line when setting on top of the wad. Then crimp. Can a fiber wad be to long?? Can pushing a fiber wad or any wad for that matter to hard cause the powder to ignite?? Also will fiber cause more recoil ?? Than plastic

Gentlemen. I wanted to say thanks for the years of experience you shared on this subject, it has really helped me a lot and sent me in the right direction. Like I said I loaded pistol rounds. As a matter of fact my closet is full of them. But in learning to load with pistols 45acp I am a stickler for published loads with stats. My findings are American select for powder. Our local range has it on the shell. I called a guy I hunted quail out in west Texas about 10 yrs ago to see if he had any imr 7625. If he does he isn't telling. Anyway American select for powder. With either a 3/4 or 7/8 oz shot I guess I will load these in a Winchester aa cut down as Alliant has a receipt for it. And it seems to be less pressure with the aa hull than the others. I also can use my rst ( cheddite ) with a cheddite 1oz load for hunting @ about 6000 psi if I remember. The smaller loads were like 5200 psi I think. Provided it doesn't change by cutting down the shell they call for. But I just wanted to thanks everyone See you in the field. Kirk.

Kirk

I may have missed something in the exchanges . To be clear the stack with fiber wads loads goes in this order

Powder charge

Nitro card used as it comes, it's what provides the gas seal. Needs to fit the hull width. You can buy them thick or thin.

Fiber wad split to make your stack height come out right. How the hull Crimps Or rolls will tell you how thick the fiber wad needs to be

Shot

If you fold crimp you are done

If you plan to roll crimp add over shot wad before rolling.

The fiber wads, able to split to size, allow varying powder and shot charges to come out to the proper stack height. They have some spring or compression ability, makes for a nice tight load.

Make sense ?

William

William
Makes perfect sense. I will be loading plastic and fiber it seems. I have never cut one open to see how it all stacks in there. But that explains it. I read where people put this card and that in a load and wasn't sure. I am pretty sure that I would like to load some with fiber wad for skeet and maybe quail. With the up close shot it seems to give a quicker spread. For ducks and dove a little tighter pattern for longer shots. Thanks for the info.

Yes. Over on shotgungunworld.com in the reloading forum their are guys who like both. I feel there's less trouble with the Jr because there's nothing to go wrong with it, where as with the collet, if dirt or shot get down in the collet it's trouble. For me, the Jr won't resize high brass shells - can't get the shell to drop back out of the resizing ring. The sizemaster will resize high brass. There's good and bad points for each, but both resize low brass shells good. Maybe someone else has good luck with high brass in the Jr and will comment.

Kirk, William explained it pretty well. If you're reloading to max pressures then you'd want to stick to published loads. Most of us are fooling around at the low end of the scale. so there's room to play around a little. We're just telling you what works for us. All fiber wads in a load will have less pressure than the same load with plastic wads because the fiber doesn't seal as good. In old reloading manuals, when plastic wads were first used and all the data was for fiber wads, they said to reduce loads by 10% if using plastic. I'm not telling anyone else to do it, but I at times increase powder charges by 1 gr or so when subbing in fiber wads. JMHO

I am loading 200 short 10s now. While I keep the lots separate am using mixed hulls 50 at a time. Federal Remington and Cheddites . The Cheddites have weak brass and thin rims. Primer knock out and size station on my 600 with the short kit bends some causing problems closing the gun and extracting. This is not a issue with American Hulls. A Mec size-master would cure the problem but I don't have one.

Ended up buying a 10 G die and base holder for my 12 G PW 375 size, knock out the old primer and re prime. Then push the hull out of the die with a short Denrin Rod dropped in the hull and pushed by the 12 G Hull knock out station. It's supposed to work on a loaded hull too short to knock out empty primed, reason for the rod.

Then back to the Mec 600 charge, wads, shot and fold crimp

Point is would have been better to start with a size-master. This may not be an issue with smaller gauges and if using quality hulls not with 10 G. Still,if you can find one Mec size master is the better press. Like Paul I don't like keeping collet sizers clean, get a pellet in one it shuts,you down. But like most things presses are not perfect. And PW won't make a short Kit for the PW 375.

William

Kirk I PM you with my load using Clays/International clays powder.

Thanks for the info