Vintage Gunners Cup 2024?
 

Thought it was supposed to stay in Pa for a few years. Googled it today and it appears it might in Maryland?

https://vintagers.org/vintage-gunners-cup

Tom, I agree. I wonder what happened to move it from Pennsylvania. Also October is grouse and woodcock season.

Could it have something to do with the feces spread around inside the only, yes, the only, porta john near the tent? It could be forgiven if it had ever been cleaned up. We're old guys and we need a porta john on a regular basis. And what do you think our wives think? Good riddance. I like George Hopkins and his family and facility, but the location sure didn't attract much of a vendor attendance when the Vintage Cup was there. I hope things are different this year. I will attend as I always have.

IMO from what I experienced the club wasn't prepared to deal with the crowd, there were multiple organizational issues. Some folks reported they had guns damaged from a pesticide that was sprayed on the grass before they set up the big tent over it.

I was just notified that the Vintage cup will be held at Hopkins Hunting and Sporting Clays in Kennedyville, MD on Oct 3-5, 2024.

I would think holding it in the first week of October will hurt attendance, that is the traditional opening of small game, upland bird and waterfowl in many states.

I agree.

Yeah, there were a LOT of shortcomings in last years venue.

The bathroom situation mentioned above may have contributed to it. Or maybe the caustic lye that the field was sprayed with the destroyed peoples guns didn't help either.

I got this email today addressed to the Lefever Arms Collectors Association. I will preface it with saying that we had several vintage guns, gun cases and display stands that were severely damaged by whatever they sprayed on the field before raising the tent. Despite attempts at a contact nobody has addressed this issue. The restroom facilities were abominable, and I say that as a gastroenterologist who was used to dealing with s&it on a daily basis. The shooting was messed up with the five stand and the manufacturers competition was messed up. It was just obvious that venue was just not ready for the influx of shooters and exhibitors who showed up. I have much more faith in the new venue of being able to handle to event, However, as others have expressed the timing is horrific. This is prime bird season in the east. The LACA is debating whether the turnout will be worth traveling 10-18 hours to attend an event when most shooters will be hunting.

Hi All,

I hope this email finds everyone doing well in their personal, business and sporting lives! Delaney & Sons has finished their season and is in the "let's fill those pegs for next season!" stage.

As many of you know and witnessed, last year's Vintage Cup took a lot out of me. For many reasons, things kept getting added to my plate and I tried the best I could with the resources that I was given to pull off a successful event. Whether or not it was a success is debatable. I received many compliments and I received many complaints. In the end, we increased the turn out from previous years and there were no complaints about the displays under the exhibitors tent. Everyone loved what you all brought to your tables! I thank you for that!!

After some thought, I have decided to step off the Vintage Gunners Board. My time and energy is best spent focused on D&S and our youngest, Graham's, senior year in high school.

As for 2024, they will not be returning to Warrington Sporting Clays. The decision was made by 3:1 vote from the board to go to
Hopkins Hunting & Sporting Clays in Kennedyville, MD.
October 3 through October 5, 2024 (Thurs - Sat)

Your points of contact about this year's cup will be
Matt Haney: mmhaney@comcast.net
Ray McNaughton: raymcnaughton@comcast.net

You can expect to start receiving info packets in early April. Matt and Ray will have them at the Southern, for those attending.

If anyone has questions, suggestions or feedback, Matt and Ray will be happy to help you.

Hope to see you all soon!

Cheers, Liz

[QUOTE=Bob Decker;406072]I got this email today addressed to the Lefever Arms Collectors Association. I will preface it with saying that we had several vintage guns, gun cases and display stands that were severely damaged by whatever they sprayed on the field before raising the tent.

This is the first I heard of this Bob. What exactly happened to your stuff? I'll be at Warrington on Weds and try to find out what the story is and report back.

Daryl,
This is one of three guns of mine that were damaged at the Vintagers. Bob had 2 more that showed similar issues to a slightly lesser degree. We also had hard cases, a canvas covered case and our LACA table banner stand that were permanently stained/etched from whatever chemical was sprayed in the field prior to setting up the tent. As is our normal routine we cover the tables with our club covers, wipe down the guns with oil or a Rig rag and lay the guns flat folding the covers over the top so both the back and front drapes provide a double layer of fabric over the guns. We then cover and clamp the entire table with tarps to protect from condensate that often forms inside the tent overnight. When I uncovered in the morning I noticed small droplets on the metal finish. When I wiped them down again the finish was gone. I started to put two and two together when I pulled the hard cases that I had stored on the ground under the table. The cases and the table stand that was also set on the ground appeared to be acid etched. The long covers did contact the ground and must have transferred to the guns when we folded them over for the night. While these particular examples aren't the most valuable in our collections they are likely the rarest of the early Lefever partnership guns. I now need to get them fixed. I had contacted Liz shortly after the show and never received a response.
Ken

Ken and Bob;

Let me contact Liz and Chad at Warrington and I'll see what I can find out what happened. I don't know what their purpose was in spraying the area before erecting the tents. That's horrible damage to your guns. Did you know of any other vendors that experienced this problem?

Rather than spraying a pesticide, a better move would have been to mow the grass in the tent area. By the time I walked from one end to the other, one time, I was done for the day. It was a struggle. The grass was thick and probably six inches high. Is it true that Liz didn't reply to any of the comments made by the participants? Oh, well.

Just a comment I don't know what was sprayed or applied but if any I doubt it was a pesticide or caustic lye as posted on this thread. Possibly a herbicide?

Better they moved the VGC to October than to step on our Rock Mountain dates again. Since we're doing the Fall Southern later in October, we'll be skipping the VGC. :corn:

Dr. Bob, does that mean you guys will be joining us in July??

Yes Jim, it is grouse and woodcock season. It also begins in September in Maine. September is also the beginning of dove and October ushers in archery for deer and bear in PA. Once the calendar turns to September there's pretty much some sort of upland, big game or waterfowl hunting season open, especially in PA, through mid-April. As much as I enjoy hunting, when the weather is nice and there's a SxS tournament, the clays win out. I don't have to chase them or clean them and I can shoot 1000+ clays in a four day event. I can't do that hunting!! :rotf: Someone will say Argentina. That's all well and good but not everyone has a passport or the desire to travel that far for dove and pigeon. :shock::whistle::corn:

My point is, speaking as a range owner, there are only so many weeks to choose from to host a multi-day event. Weather is the main determining factor. Hunting seasons are something we don't really factor in as a small percentage of shooters choose birds over clays. It is what it is,

Frank, we don't know what it was and it doesn't really matter except that it was caustic to some of the older Dangerfield and Lefever, Barber and Lefever, and Nichols and Lefever guns. These are pretty rare and re-doing the barrels is an expensive option, not to mention detracts from the original condition collectors value.
Bill Murphy is right in that the grass, hay, or whatever it is was torture for those of us with limited mobility.

Frank,
I haven't made a public guess at what caustic agent was present, or for what purpose. I only reported my experiences and the hypothesis that all the damage was connected to ground contact - either directly or through transfer from the fabric covers. In the end it doesn't really matter as the result is that I need to have the guns fixed.

Daryl,
Appreciate your follow-up but I'm not thinking it'll make any difference to the end result. I contacted Liz privately to share my experience, didn't get a response, I moved on with a lesson learned.

Mike,
Standby on July.

Ken

Mike, I understand your view ,but for me grouse wins out over clays. The real grouse season goes from the 20 Sept to mid Nov. when deer season starts. I'll shoot clays the rest of the year, too each his own.

Ken;
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. We shall see but I promise you I will follow up.

I agree with Mike. Scheduling is the least of anyone's worries when picking dates for a sporting clays and check writing event in the fall. I used to hunt birds pretty seriously many years ago, but not seven days a week, four months a year. Both my dogs and I would have welcomed a day or two off during the long season.

I find it funny that the attitude used to be that the Third weekend in Sept was “vintagers weekend” come hell or high water. Even when it meant scheduling it on the same weekend of another already booked event. But they now have no issue with moving the date around. 2 weeks early last year, 2 weeks later this year.

THE Vintagers should move to Ohio. I just checked out some of the sporting clays clubs on their sites on the www. They looked great.You would get a lot,lot MORE Vendors & Attendance, and a Gun Friendly State. Also a new place
instead of the same old places has More Appeal.

Harry

I sure miss the old days when it was held at Pintail Point in MD.





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The problem with the Vintagers is most of us remember what it used to be and how far it has fallen from that peak. Last year’s event was touted as the beginning of the resurrection but instead was one more nail in the coffin. Hopkins is a nice venue and has hosted the event before. I sincerely wish the organizers the best because it’s good for our community.

I agree Mike and I wish them well too. Hoping someday it will again be what it used to be.

Maybe this year...





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I wish they would team up with Mike Koneski as many of us begged them to do.

Last year I was involved with the VGC and I strongly suggested that they attend either Ernie's or Mike's shoot and pick their brains to get an idea of what they would need to do to have a successful shoot. We all know how that came out don't we?

I was at the Big Sportsman's Show this week end, and was Talking to two
people who I got to know a little bit when the Vintage Cup was at Hausemann's.
They told Me the word they got a few months ago was ''Never again'' in Penna.
I asked why, and they said Rock Mountain & Hausemann's were too far out in the ''Sticks'', for the people to come to. The place they held it at last, was a complete disaster. Their words, not my. I wasn't at it.

Harry

P.S.Their were quite a few Doubles their, including Parkers. A nice C-Grade for only $12,000.
Some Really nice Ithaca's and Remingtons.

When it was at Sandanona years ago that was pretty much in the sticks. But it was run properly and very successful. If they do a good job people will come but that's asking a lot. Don't ask me why they can't see the benefit of having it at Pintail Point where is was for a couple years. Centrally located, plenty of lodging and restaurants within easy driving. As they say it's a no brainer.

Sticks? WOW!! We’re 20 minutes from two County Seats as well as 20 minutes or less to plenty of lodging. Just like NSCA shooters don’t support PA clubs and cut their nose off to spite their face, clubs here just stopped throwing registered. There are only so many ranges willing and/or able to host a multi-day SxS event with all the various shooting events thrown in. We have 35 events at ours plus special pricing for those just “shooting for fun”. Not many ranges can do what we do. Complainers gotta complain.

You're preaching to the choir here buddy.:banghead:

You also have to take into consideration that the new sponsor simply doesn't want to continue the event at that location. The Delaneys were at least 2-year veterans (as exhibitors) at Ernie's so I am fairly confident they paid close attention to the mechanics of hosting the event there and grilled Ernie as to the prats and pitfalls of putting something like that on. I am not privy to whatever contact and/or depth of conversation they may or may not have had with Mike regarding Rock Mountain hosting the event, so I cannot speak to that.

The choice of a location at Wellsville PA IMHO was a "testing the waters" experiment that failed for two reasons: First, the inherent naivete that everything would come off like clockwork as they had seen at Ernie's (and earlier venues like Sandanona and Pintail Point) per efficient range management and organization, and Second, the "unawareness quotient" of the local range management that when you advertise that shooting will begin at 9AM, YOU NEED TO BE READY TO SHOOT AT 9AM!!

Serious competitors (think Mikey, Daryl, the Defernelmonts & others of their ilk) are in an SUV train with ATVs on trailers or rented golf cars when the gates open at 9AM for an advertised day of cracking clays; there is little tolerance for the trappers for "Well, it was working great yesterday" for a balky trap or "the targets must be still wet from last night's dew" as bird after bird shatters into confetti coming off the plate.

Also, when you advertise a known major competitive event 6 mos. in advance, you plan ahead to NOT RUN OUT OF FOOD AT NOON ON DAY 2 (as occured at Pintail Point on the 2nd day of the event!).

Lastly, the non-shooting-related logistics (e.g., variety and quality of available food vendors, proximity and suitability of lodging (not to mention affordability) and overall attention to detail (clean Port A Johns!!) in providing shooters as well as spectators an enjoyable day afield play a crucial role in making one want to return for another event.

I give the Delaneys a lot of credit for taking on this "Dark Side of the Moon" effort on a first- time basis. They are an established firm offering high-end driven bird shooting in Great Britain and Europe. Having been on a few of these (not with the Delaneys) I can appreciate the bifurcation of logistics required and the exhaustive attention to detail required to bring off both those and the Vintagers within the same year(s).

I would urge all interested parties to read Liz Delaney's eMail to Dr. Bob's Lefever group regarding this change of date and venue for the VGC. Also read Mike Franzen's comment a few posts ago that supporting this event is "good for our community." For those that can't wait to criticize the outcome of their first VGC effort, remember that the empty wagon rattles the loudest.

Brian, thank you for your support. :)

Pintail Point made some mistakes. I think Sandanona was the gold standard.

A few of things that I encountered when dealing with staff and volunteers of the Warrington club at the VGC beyond those things already mentioned. When you signed up for the main event they had staggered start times. 9AM. 11AM and 1PM. We wanted to shoot at 9AM so we could finish up and go see the museum at the Army War College in the afternoon. I thought I would be getting a score card for the 9AM round if it was available. Instead I was told there was no guarantee that we could start at 9AM, instead we were told to go stand under a canopy and wait for a trapper to take us out on the course if there was room for the 9AM start. I explained we won't be able to shoot at the later times as we had plans and asked if I could turn our cards back in if we could not shoot at 9AM. We were told NO. So I had to gamble and possibly waste $180.

We got to start at 9AM and had to walk out to the furthest station where targets were in the woods. By the second station I realized with so many broken targets that I would probably need more shells than the extra box I had taken with me because of all the do overs. My truck was a long ways away. At the end of the second station a person from the club came out to reset the targets and apologized saying he had to set up the targets the night before in the dark. This caused long delays at our first three stations as squads backed up on the shotgun start.

We had some amazing squad mates, two teenage boys both shooting Model 21's, 14 and 16 year old and their mentor. Both were shooting fantastic but the 14 year old was shooting lights out. About mid course we were in an elevated shooting stand and there was a low dropping incomer. It was a difficult second shot. The 14 year old was doing the best of all of us and getting solid breaks on that target and the trapper/scorer kept calling them lost with the rest of the squad telling the scorer it was a dead bird. The scorer had taken a seat behind some brush and couldn't see the target being hit below his line of sight. This went on for the entire squad as the scorer didn't change his position when that was suggested. Unfortunately I think it rattle the young man and hurt his composure costing him some targets.

I shrugged it off, sharing what happened with a few friends and went about my way.
All in all I had a great time but mainly because I was enjoying all the tourist activities available in Gettysburg, Carlyle and later Harpers Ferry and Antietam. Bottom line I would love to go back to Gettysburg but not another VGC at Warrington.

Let me clarify my last post. Liz and Sean certainly did their part but Liz bit off more than she could handle as she did 90% of it by herself. Warrington SC dropped the ball and was totally unprepared for the event even after having months to prepare for it. It's a shame because he has the potential and the room to put on a good shoot. Plus as Pete said there are many great historic sites in the PA area.

personally, I love shooting clays, but you can do that any time of the year. Hunting season is a limited time frame and can't be rescheduled. multi day shooting events are fun but not as much as shooting live game over a fine dog. The southern is terrific the guns the people and the shooting. Maybe find a place to hold it after the season. Hunters point, Drakes landing, CVSC, or Rock Mountain could hold a good meet for those folks who like to play dress-up

I’m kinda skeptical of CVSC doing something like the Cup . Brad’s a good guy but I don’t think he wants any part of such an undertaking .

When I first got wind that the Vintage Cup was coming to central Pa. I highly suggested Blue Ridge Sportsman's Association, my home club. They have hosted many state sporting clays championship and SCTP shoots. They are an all volunteer club and located 2 1/2 miles from interstate 81 with motels at almost every exit and tourist attractions around the entire area. Negotiations went round and round with Blue Ridge but in the end Blue Ridge said "No". Why? From what I was told, the Vintagers wanted Blue Ridge (remember Volunteers) to do 90% of the work for little profit. They decided to go to Warrington and I could tell that the preparations for a large shoot just wasn't happening. Too bad, I liked the fact that I could, for once, sleep in my own bed for a shoot!