Runge Engraving Log
 

I have read that Robert(Bob) Runge kept a detailed log of the guns he engraved. That he was meticulous in documenting the guns he engraved and the hours spent on each gun. I would think this log would contain a treasure trove of information on the Parker/Remington guns that he engraved. Does anyone know the whereabouts of this Runge log book? Anyone ever had the opportunity to look at it?

PML

It would be great for the archives and add additional information to a research letter.

A young lady came on here a couple of years ago who was his niece or some family relation. She appeared to know a whole lot of information about him but didn’t tell us much.





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Bob Runge's logbook detailing his engraving details and the guns he worked on by serial number is in the hands of one of his 2 daughters (I forget which one). I saw it many times over the years, off and on in Del Grego's shop on 5th Ave. in Ilion, and when I interviewed Bob for material on the article I wrote on him for Double Gun Journal.

His wife was very insistent on his keeping accurate and detailed records on the guns he did to make sure he was paid in full for his work. After she died Bob stuck to it; much of the log is on simple 3' x 4" spiral bound pocket notebooks he carried with him everywhere he went while working on the guns.

After Bob died, his oldest daughter's husband abruptly gathered everything available of that nature to prevent the obvious (fraudulent gun documentation, bogus attribution of Bob's work, etc.). It bothered some but it was probably a very wise move in retrospect.

The young lady Dean refers to in his earlier post is I believe Bob's granddaughter. I sent her a copy of my article and a couple of lengthy e-mails after getting the OK from her father (not the man who gathered up all Bob's records) to correspond with her. She thanked me warmly but never carried the conversations any further. I think she was just coming of age to realizing what an incredible talent and a wonderful man Bob was. I miss him.

Perhaps the PGCA (with Kevin’s assistance?) could make a formal overture to the daughters. They may not appreciate the significance of those papers or how placing such papers in the hands of the PGCA (or at least providing access) would solidify their father’s legacy.

-Victor

Has anything ever materialized from Victor’s suggestion?





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I heard that somebody on the Remington society website had access to the Runge engraving records and was putting together a book. I contacted a member of the site and he knew the people that were putting the book together and would get back to me but thats been several months now. I have a mint Remington 11-48 -28 gauge(F-grade) first or second year of production that is marked "RR" (Robert Runge). I would love to get something like a factory letter that verifies that he engraved the gun.

John, PM sent.

How nice if this information gets shared. Like many others I have a Parker 28 GH I would like to get documentation on.

I wouldn't hold your breath as another gentlemen on this site contacted me and said that he has been waiting for years for these men to release the information on Runges engraving records. By the way-I would love to find a 28 ga. GH like yours! Put a ad in the wanted section for GH or VH 28ga. but haven't got the first response.

I also have a CHE 20 Gauge with Quail engraved on the Bottom of the receiver and Barrel Wedge engraving ! All " In The Know " who have seen this gun in person agree it is Runge Engraved but I would love to have the documentation ! I also have a BHE 410 Runge Engraved Upgrade which was once owned by Odus Odum ,I do have a letter from Larry DelGrego on that gun !

I am of the opinion that most if not all of "Runge" upgrade engraving will be signed like the link picture shows.
Bob Jurewicz

https://images.gunsinternational.com...3571835E03.jpg

To be clear, Russ’ CHE 20 is the real deal and not an upgrade.

I’m sure Bob wasn’t implying it being an upgrade but just so others know is the reason for this post.





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The Dealer states that Parker never made a BHE 410. Is that correct? I always thought that the one pictured in the Baer book was all original. I can't remember if the Parker story book pictures an original or not but I was thinking in my reading somewhere that a few original guns were made.

I don't find any Grade-5 hammerless .410 guns listed in the tables in the Grades section of The Parker Story. This may, or may not, be definitive...

However, on page 306 there are pictures of 241788 a beautiful BHE .410 - which certainly appears to have been engraved by Runge - where it is described as "rare" not unique or 1 of 1, so...

Draw your own conclusions.





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[QUOTE=John Bastiani;312205]The Dealer states that Parker never made a BHE 410. Is that correct?

No, it is not correct - of the 3 BHE .410s I know of, the one Dean refers to in TPS is obviously a righteous gun; another owned years ago by a man named Emil Linder is similarly bona fide, and a third, which may or may not be a fake, was auctioned off by Butterfield's (?) some years ago. (There is always the possibility that the Linder gun is the one pictured in TPS).

A couple of things to think about:

Probably the greatest debunking of the "Parker Never Did That" axiom occurred when an obscure Gettysburg PA auction house surfaced the only known AHE .410 which sold north of $100K. Myself and several other PGCA members were invited to examine the gun and spent the better part of two hours with it; I can assure you it was "real."

Another tidbit to gnaw on is the following:

At the time the Linder gun was in the possession of its third owner after Linder's death, it essentially 'disappeared' from the mainstream of collector's media discussion and mention. During approximately the same time period, a man living in WA state reported purchasing 2 sets of Parker .410 barrels with forends out of a fibreboard barrel at a yard sale while vacationing on Cape Cod. There was no mention of serial numbers matching either barrels to forends or whether the barrel sets were for the same gun.

They are out there..........

I. and probably others, have pictures of that auctioned AHE .410 Skeet gun.

I can post some here if anybody’s interested.





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Dean
Yes please!
BobJurewicz

I'm having trouble finding the pictures but I found the package that Bob Beach sent to me. I ordered the research material on this Parker because the same person who ordered this AHE Skeet gun 241576 through A&F also ordered the .410 SKEET-ER two-barrel set that I owned.

Okay... I found 'em... Nope, those weren't the right pics.

Also checked the tables in TPS and found 241576 in the .410's tables and also in the Grade 6 tables.

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[QUOTE=Kevin McCormack;312224]Do you know if the BHE 410 in the Baer book is legit? I also figured that this dealer was trying to prop up this gun by saying that to make a sale. I have witnessed several of his guns at shows and it seems that alot of his stuff isn't right or has been redone.

John, I do not know if the BHE .410 in Baer's book is "righteous" or not. Documenting it would be an interesting piece of detective work. I spoke to him years ago tracking down the fate of Edwin Hedderly's two A-1 Specials, but we never got into a discussion of the BHE .410.

The BHE .410 I got to see in the Safari Room of the sporting goods section of Frederick & Nelson department store in downtown Seattle when I was a college student had a vent rib and as I recall quite long barrels. It wasn't for sale there. The owner (?) was showing it off to Mr. Tibbitts the manager.

Were folks already upgrading Parker .410s by the 1966-8 time frame? Unfortunately that was 35-40 years before I was writing down serial numbers and specifications. Sure wish I'd have had a cell phone with a camera that day!!

There are (publicly unsubstantiated) rumors of higher grade long-barreled Parker .410’s from the late Remington era having been sent to the West Coast, a pair of them having gone to a couple of brothers who are likely no longer with us today.





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Summer 2017 Volume 24 Issue 2 page 4. BHE 410 32" vent rib. It is in the display. It is real. May not have records records but it was there.

Thanks Jimmy - I just looked at it in my Parker Pages Digital Archives.





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Thanks James. That top gun in the picture of Bill with his collection must be the one I saw in Seattle over 50 years ago. Sure would like to see some more/better pictures of that gun!!

Et tu, Mr. Mullins?

The BHE-Grade .410-bore pictured on pages 306 and 307 of The Parker Story is stated to be 241788 and is shown with a slim forearm. But 241788 is shown in the .410-bore tables, page 1009 as a DHE-Grade with an extras code of 16 which is "Large Forearm"?!?

And the IBM card on 241788 might not confirm much at all about its features.





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Applying what is left of my imagery analysis skills for about an hour with a magnifying glass, I'm 98% sure that the .410-bore BHE-Grade shown on pages 85 and 86 of Larry Baer's combined book with 241788 on pages 306 and 307 of The Parker Story are the same gun. Larry indicates the BHE-Grade .410-bore pictured in his book is Emil Linder's gun.

Dave, looking as closely as I can with a magnifying glass (I sure wish Larry could have published better pictures) I can see big differences in the trigger guard engraving. For instance, the positioning of the 'rose' blossom is different between the two.

My guess is that Runge had drawn a very distinct and detailed engraving pattern and engraved them extremely close to that pattern and to each other... until it came to the trigger guard bow.

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I think you've got me Dean. I'll blame it on the picture you used being from Volume One of Larry's work, while I used the picture from the combined volume!! :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, got the teaser for the December Poulin's Auction today which shows a Runge engraved Remington Model 17F "Premier" Grade. Wonder if it is a Runge/Delgrego upgrade?

https://www.poulinauctions.com/spect...-pump-shotgun/

BHE .410
 

The BHE .410 Dave saw in Seattle many years ago does in fact have 32” barrels and a ventilated rib. I have seen the gun and at one time it was in the Robert E. Peterson collection in California. It is logical to assume it orginted in Seattle where Dave originally saw the gun and migrated to California. It is one of three presently known to exist and the only one with 32” barrels and ventilated rib. 😊

In my letters from Emil Linder in the sixties, he talks about the BHE .410, but does not mention a serial number.

Looking at the Emil Linder BHE-Grade .410-bore again in Larry Baer's books. On page 73 of Volume II, Larry states "Other than an AAHE .410 I have seen, but am unable to show you, this is probably the best of the .410 Parkers. It is a mint BHE which is also discussed in Volume I."

More examples
 

I came across this recently, it is a letter from Mr.Runge regarding some work that he did. He included his original drawing on the engraving.

I know that it was part of 3 guns that were done, all Delgrego/ Runge works.

Thought this was pretty cool.

Can we see the other two? Wow and double Wow.

I was able to get a picture of the second one, didn't get one of the 3rd.

Two were Trojans, the 3rd is a VH

Are all three of them Trojans?





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