Carding, and boiling at the end
 

Deep into the reading material on refinishing damascus, and wanted to ask what folks use to card and why they use it. I've heard about the use of heavier steel wool, Scotchbrite pads, baking soda and finger tips, etc.

I'm also trying to sort out the iterations of rusting, carding, boiling, etching:

Seems that some blue the barrels to the desired color, boiling each cycle, and only then do they start to etch. Others seem to brown, then etch, and save the boil until the end to get their contrast.

Simply trying to learn and would appreciate insight into this. Is this a "to each his own" stylistic process?

For the most consistent results you should get Dr. Oscar Gaddy's method of restoring Damascus barrels to original appearance.





.

I've been looking at "Tom Flanigan's Damascus Restoration Tutorial" which I understand to be an adaptation of Dr. Gaddy's method, and it mentions carding with wet baking soda.

Also, the document directs the audience to drill a second weep hole in the rib. Do you folks do this, and how far from the muzzle is recommended?

Bill,

I spoke with Mr. Dale Edmonds at length about the process he uses. He told me that Dr. Gaddy's instructions left a lot of unanswered questions, and he learned it by trial and error, and even today he has different results depending upon the metal in the barrels. Of course he is finishing up his work and is retiring, and he found no one to apprentice under him.

I tried it and gave up. I can do rust bluing with no problem but Damascus was too much of a match for me. I can tell you that Mr. Edmonds does not drill a hole or additional hole in the under rib behind the forearm on the barrels he has done for me. I anxiously await my last set for a DH that he is doing.

Early Parkers don't have a weep hole to start with. But if when the barrels go in the boiling tank and you see bubbles coming from the ribs, then water is going to get in there. Thus I am sure the recommendation for the weep hole(s).

Thank you.

I'm giving it a try with a Grade 1 Smith, that does have an existing weep hole right next to the forend hook, muzzle side. Getting etching solution in there seems a bad idea, so I plugged it, but I imagine that there are still voids along the ribs that fluid could penetrate.

I'm using steam to convert rust instead of boiling, so there's no submersion there, but there is with the etchant dip. Maybe that's why some brush on the etchant; to keep that stuff out of the weep hole.

If it has one, a second one makes it easier to remove all moisture, drilled back towards the breech. But don't dill into the barrels. When it is put in water displacing oil and you use air, it gets most everything out after several times. Mr. Edmonds heated the barrels with a heat gun to get rid of anything between the ribs from what I remember he told me.

Bill Graham, Tom Flanigan did not perfect his Damascus refinishing methods. He apparently is retired from his attempts. Too bad, because he is a wonderful person and loves setters. Personal tragedies apparently ended his efforts.

Baking soda would be a neutralizer. Not for carding.

Do NOT drill weep holes. You are altering the barrels from their original state and they cause more problems than they prevent.



Have you actually used steam in regular rust bluing with good results? I tried it and found it very difficult to avoid spotting and getting a good outcome. If you have not used it before, i recommend a trial run to see if you can make it work for you.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.





.

Flanigan cites using it to neutralize, and to use as a slurry for light fingertip carding.

Understood. I ask here to validate what is said elsewhere.

Yes, repeatedly. You were kind enough to give one a thumbs-up comment on one I did last year. It's gone very well thus far. A couple of keys is to hang the barrels muzzle up, and for the boil to be intense. I'm sure I'd be happy with boiling as well; I simply don't have the equipment or space. I had the PVC components, canning pot, and camp stove on hand.

The baking soda is used after submersing in the acid bath. Carding is done after boiling and before the acid bath.

I believe it is both. In Flanigan's tutorial, the converted black oxide soot is carded dry, and then there is wet and gentle carding with the baking soda slurry to help remove what the etchant attacks. Regardless of the tutorial, I'm going with the consensus of using steel wool for any stage of carding.

All done with my first set. Dale Edmonds was kind enough to discuss the finer points with me, which was very generous of him.

Looks good. Hard to tell from the photos, but watch your carding in the hard to reach places. The cracks of the ribs look awfully dark. Could just be the photo.

Thank you. Yes, hard to get to, and I'm not set up well for taking photographs, so it's likely both. I could have etched another time or two for more contrast, but I decided to let it be. When I find some more material, I'll test out some more techniques and focus on those trouble areas.

Great work!!

looks really good to me...charlie

These are from a Smith hammer gun I finished this week. Still without a logwood tank, but hope to have one sorted out soon.

These photos are mid-day, overcast. They'd look brighter overall in direct sun perhaps, and then possibly over-dark inside a room. The hue is the same in person, even though the underside looks lighter, it isn't really. Four coats of wax.

I still find myself using baking soda as a soft slurry for carding after etching. I like it. In a way it's flexible, in that you can use less or more, impregnating some steel wool or just fingertips, depending on how you need to deal with irregularities in the effectiveness of the etching. Calcium cabonate (whiting) is what Dr. Gaddy wrote about, and will try that also, but the soda accomplishes the same purpose and neutralizes the acid. Still working on it.

On the list to sort out is the coating of the bores with urethane or shellac without making a big mess.

Do not use scotchbright pads to card; they will scratch the barrel surface because they are too rough. Stick to 0000 steel wool. Also carding with baking soda slurry makes for uneven results.

I don't use Scotch Brite pads. The slurry I make is very wet, about the consistency of cream and works well.

those barrels looked very good to me..charlie

Those barrels are among the best I have ever seen.

Bill,

I've had to change horses in midstream. Abbey's logwood at $2,730 for 10 pounds has pushed me out of the Oscar Gaddy and Dale Edmonds method of doing barrels. I too am rusting, boiling, etc. In the last four months I have discovered so many ways NOT to color barrels. I'm trying to discover what works best for carding after the Ferric Chloride etching. For the moment I'm sticking Carding with steel wool and dawn followed by bon-aim and sponge. Dale carded like this after the ferric chloride dip followed by a dip in Potassium Hydroxide to neutralize and to help remove the logwood from the lugs, etc.

Harry

Not a criticism of Dales work because he did a wonderful job for me on the sets of barrels I sent to him - one being a set of Bernard barrels that he refinished in pure black and white, but it took him years to finally perfect his method to a level of consistency. There was a very long learning period where he only was able to get them to come out light gray and dark gray. The learning curve is long and slow.






.

I'm not convinced that what's on Amazon isn't just as good: powder, chips, extract. It certainly isn't that expensive. Same stuff as what's used to boil traps, so why not barrels?

The English was black enough without using it, but it was more labor intensive. My tank set-up is nearly operational, so I'm still going to try it, and give the Amazon stuff a try.

I have tried the Amazon logwood and the barrels turned black as my heart. With ferrous sulfate added they did not turn black. With ferrous sulfate after barrels were black the results were if I had carded after the first rusting. Carding the black barrels without the
Ferrous sulfate was just as fruitless.

Hey Harry. I'm a bit confused. Logwood for traps did, or did not, blacken? The ferrous sulfate did not help the oxide to release from the steel? I've got a barrel of my own to try soon, so I'll do some testing.

Bill,

I'm confused as well! I have five sets of barrels going and will try the amazon logwood in different form today on two of them. All I know about the ferrous sulfate and potassium hydroxide is what I've read in Oscar's articles. I have been reluctant to post about this until i was successful. I'll let you know what today brings.

Harry

How goes it, Harry? I'm still plugging away with the practice. Messing with a Lefever barrel now. I don't have an issue with the depth of black oxide in the crolle, it's get the steel white enough and regulating what how much is etched off that are my struggles.

I know how other fellows do it, and have followed suit in a very disciplined manner, but the steel continues to darken more than expected and confuses the etching times.

Finally had some good success. Still no logwood, and there were more iterations than I ultimately would like, but it feels good for it to be going better. This set was finished last week, and is from a Lefever G grade from 1894.

A very nice job! Congratulations.






.

Agreed

Excellent work

Great job.

Just saw this Bill. You are mistaken. I have never drilled a weep hole or recommended it. I should never be done, ever, when using the rust blue methods for fluid or damascus finishing.

It may be necessary for some types of hot bluing but I am totally unfamiliar with those methods and have never used them.

To clarify, I card with wet baking soda to lightly card after the etchant dip. The baking soda stops further action of the etchant and removes the color loosened by the etchant. It is not used for carding the barrels after rusting.

I am back restoring my own damascus barrels. I have modified my former approach to get more consistency. Getting consistent results takes a lot of trial and error. Most develop their own tweaks on the overall process. The results of my new tweaks is very encouraging.

Hi Tom. I was referring to both documents; yours and Dr. Gaddy’s. In one of Gaddy’s was mentioned a second weep hole.

I’m sure all of us interested in the process the process would value hearing whatever tweaks you’re willing to share.

This is my last set. No logwood involved.

Absolutely beautiful Bill. You have obviously developed your own tweaks. I have more experimenting to do before I publish my new twists and turns. When I get consistent results on all barrels, I'll share my thoughts.

Some barrels are harder than others. When I can do any barrel the same way and get good consistent results, I'll post my tweaks.

Thanks Tom. No kidding. The 4-iron was misery. The layers are so thin. This Washington was one of the easier ones thus far because the pattern edges are more distinct.

I like your wisdom around success with any barrel. I still consider my successes to have been educational accidents. Either way, it’s interesting, fulfilling, and frustrating.

Shellac or Urethane?
 

I was wondering about the urethane coat. I rust blue pretty regularly, in fact, it’s my regular bluing method. I work primarily on doubles and other higher end guns, so it didn’t make sense to maintain a set of tanks that would sit idle most of the time. I’m about to do my first Damascus barrel for a customer. It’s a Parker with Stubbs Twist barrels. I’ll probably be posting a lot of questions during the course of this new endeavor. Any help would be very welcome. I have Tom Flanagan’s article as a starting point. Where can Dr. Gaddy’s instructions be found?

I use shellac to mask bores and other areas in my rust blue jobs. It’s easy to apply, seems to stay intact very well even through repeated boiling cycles, and is really easy to remove at the end. Would it do well on Damascus finishing? I tried urethane early on my rust bluing. It is very hard to remove, especially from interiors of receivers and other tight spots, and sometimes, some of the stripping compounds recommended for urethane removal are very bad on the new finish. Can shellac be used with the etching steps? Your advice would be appreciated.

I have never used shellac but I imagine it would work. I use urethane for damascus because you typically have to do many more iterations of rust, card, etch and boil. But you might be onto something with shellac. I'll try it and If it stays intact, I'll switch. It certainly would be a lot easier to remove from the bores.

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?





.