"Destry rides again"
 

Well said indeed Sir Hunter of the Marketplace. Have missed your postings, I have 20 years on you or more, and am also a die-hard waterfowler. I love to drop big birds with a 3" 12 bore (M12 or LC Smith with proper loads) but consider my eyeballed 40 yards to be "Max"--

I think those of us who shoot the big ten bore doubles are perhaps a bit of a "cult"- the eight bore (and I have handled your Churchill 8- what a cannon) even more so.

But I also sense the great spirit of American Independence here- perhaps in like token to one reason why I have a valid CCW for our State- when in past years each of the 83 Counties had their own arbitrary rules and regs- Because, as a Honorably Discharged vet with zero criminal record- shall issue, I seldom carry the S&W snubbie, but when I want to, within the limits of the law, I can- I see no harm or fault in allowing the 8 bore, as it was once legal- you could count on the fingers of both of your hands the number of men dedicated and die-hard enough to want to do so for waterfowl- most likely they would have to hand load non-toxic- expensive, but if it is their wish to expend the funds- I say- have at it Gents.

Good shooting to you and your friends this season- I'll be out early Sat and Sun morning- awaiting a Bluebird (not Bluebills) opener here--:bigbye:

So what's your point...we should legalize punt guns in the U.S. as well? Comparing the game populations, hunting culture, gun usage, between the US and the UK is like comparing apples and oranges. Gun ownership, and hunting in general, is much more exclusive in the UK, and their laws have evolved around their own unique situation.

As far as why the 10 gauge hasn't been extremely popular in the U.S since WWII has nothing to do with how effective/ineffective it was as a sporting arm. The 10 gauge (or larger gauges) have in the past been looked at as strictly waterfowl guns. Waterfowl populations took serious downturns during the decades following WWII. To understand why this is important to the fall in popularity of large bore shotguns, you have to understand the average American hunter during that time period. Hunting is a rural activity, and for most of America's history, hunting was done mostly by the rural population. Most people without money to burn could only afford to buy one gun to fill their needs. Which in most cases was a 12 gauge (hence the premium we Parker collectors pay for guns larger or smaller than 12 gauge). The 10 gauge was always a more effective waterfowl gun than a 12, but most people could only afford one gun, especially when waterfowl hunting started to decline. Anyone who has patterned a similar load through a 12 and 10, knows that the 10 will generally throw a better pattern.

Yes, the 3 1/2" 12 gauge almost put an end to new development of the 10 gauge (although Remington is now offering a new 10). But it has nothing to do with how inherently unpopular the 10 gauge is. The biggest obstacle to new development on the 10 gauge is the SAAMI regulation limiting ammunition to 11,000 PSI. When the 3 1/2" 12 gauge was introduced, this limit was raised to 14,000 PSI for the 12 gauge. This was requested mostly by shotgun manufactures who wanted to sell their new Magnum shotguns!

A modern 8 gauge represents something essentially new to the hunting world. Turkey hunting has seen a huge increase over the past couple decades. And yes, using a modern 8 gauge that can throw a 90% pattern at 80 yards of #6 tungsten shot, would be a highly effective turkey load, and is not something many people would consider fair chase in a shotgun only season.

My whole point is that if there is a dollar to be made, a shotgun manufacturer will develop a new 8 gauge to satisfy those with "Magnumitis", if the bans are lifted, especially if the SAAMI limitations are raised in proportion to the gauge. My fear is it would lead to controversial hunting situations that we can not predict right now, and harm the sport in general. I just don't understand why this is even being brought up as an issue, but I guess I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Sure why not make it legal here in the US again. It would be no threat to waterfowl populations if that's your big concern. Nobody would do it, just like hardly anybody does it in the places it's still legal such as the UK. It's very very dangerous, out on big open water in a tiny boat with a giant iron pipe of a gun weighing you down. You'd have to use non-toxic shot, a pound or more of tungsten matrix would be pretty pricey don't you think? What few punt gunners that are active in the UK maybe average a shot once every three to five trips and they only make maybe that many trips in a season. It's as tough a shooting sport as exists on this planet. What few guys still hunt that way do it out of a sense of tradition.

As far as the shooting sports being much different in the UK than here and it being "much more exclusive" you're absolutely wrong. They have somewhat more stringent gun laws than we do but it doesn't cost anything to own a gun other than the small fee you pay for your permit. Anybody can hunt and own firearms, you don't have to be the Lord of the Manor. Last time I checked, my close shooting friends over there were a greenskeeper (lawn care service), a diesel mechanic, and a security guard. They're all waterfowlers, all shoot their share of driven game, all own several guns, and all are just regular guys like you and me. There are rich people that hunt and places that are expensive to go but there are plenty of shooters and shooting opportunity for working class people too.

The Ithaca Mag 10 was made up into the early 80's, we're not talking about 50's era rural American here. It was never popular or in widespread use. I just don't understand why you think an 8 gauge pumpgun would be? Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple. These three ounce 80% pattern shells you're talking about would be $10 each or more. How many guys are going to drop that kind of money just to try and pass shoot a goose at 80 yards?

Might be something for the specialized turkey hunter who only shoots a few rounds a year but for waterfowling they just wouldn't be practical. As far as fair chase on those birds, lots of states in the west allow you to turkey hunt with a rifle. You can kill one with a .243 a whole hell of a lot further than you could with any kind of shotgun even a 4 gauge with these super shells you've got worked up in your mind.

This is all just conjecture, the ban will never be lifted. If it was ever proposed and the liberal media got ahold of it I shudder to imagine what kind of lies they'd make up if we're getting these kind of responses from actual gun owners and sportsmen.

[QUOTE=Destry L. Hoffard;25335]

Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple.

QUOTE]



Then what the he@# are we all doing here on a website that is about collecting antique Parker shotguns?

And if you consider my responses lies, like those that you imagine that would be told by the "liberal" media, I guess I take that as a compliment coming from a "sportsman" such as yourself who opened up his post suggesting lifting the ban on puntguns.

And as far as using rifles for turkeys, in some areas...just because something is legal, doesn't automatically make it right, or ethical. Right now baiting is legal for deer where I hunt, will I ever do it, no. Each of us needs to make their own decisions on what they deem is right and wrong, even if the law permits us to do so.

Now we've probably strayed too far off topic, but I think this is a healthy discussion. It brings up larger issues surrounding our sport, and many of us have voiced our opinions. It's clear we are not going to change each other mind on this topic.

Oh and by the way. Here is a link to those make believe shot shells I made up in my head. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot...Tz_stype%3DGNU

the 8 gauge should be legalized in my opinion...it is as said a very good water fowl gun....our fore fathers had to pick out somethingto make illegal so they done away with thebig guns....it was notthe big guns that was reducing our water fowl into skinking numbers but it wasus hunters that had no limit set for us......we as humans at that time did not think we were wiping out the things we loved to hunt but we were the cause not the big guns...all we needed as hunters was a little guidance a a bag limit......charlie

We're all on here because we like shooting game or clays with vintage shotguns. We're such a small part of the overall scene it's like we barely exist. About 99.9 percent of the waterfowlers I know, and I know a bunch, want their plastic automatics and the cheap steel shotshells. They're interested in hunting and killing game, with them it's the sport and not the "how" unlike with the guys who post here. When you go to Cabela's all the guys are looking at the Winchester Super X-2 or whatever is the plastic automatic of the moment. They aren't in the Gun Library looking at Parkers when they think of a new duck gun. Just the feeding of these vintage doubles as waterfowling guns is cost prohibitive, that's why it's getting hard to even find the Kent TM in the stores. Nobody is buying it anymore because it's gotten so high.

For years everybody in the US thought that if you even held a nitro powder shell next to a damascus gun it would blow up and kill everybody within a five mile radius. The British boys always got a big laugh out of us over that one. Finally folks in the US have come around due to the research done by Bell and Armbrust. Guys want to rail against the folks in the UK because one out of about 500 fowlers has some kind of old large bore shotgun that they take hunting a few times a year or that they still can shoot ducks over bait and sell them. It's all different strokes for different folks really, I'm glad I've been over there and done those things. I'm able to attempt to dispel some of the myths that have been created over the years.

You're obviously getting all wound up because I'm disagreeing with you on some of these points you're trying to make. I'm just trying to state some valid points myself not trying to wind you up. I'll leave it alone and go back to my non-posting status. Sorry I got involved really, it's just not worth the effort most of the time.

Believe me, you're not getting me wound up because you disagree with me, lumping me in with the liberal media might have a little more to do with it. :cuss:

Best of luck to you, and I hope you get a chance to do some waterfowling this season with whatever gun you decide to use, which preferably might be a fine old Parker. I know I'll be out there with mine :)

My real point here is this whole man bites dog scenario that's being cooked up with these responses. "Oh my God Billy! If they make 8 gauges legal then everybody will use an 8 gauge and they'll kill every duck and goose that exists so there won't be any left for me to shoot!" There's a limit, it's 6 ducks where I hunt at, what difference does it really make how they're taken as long as the shooter enjoyed himself and obeyed the law?

That's the core of the matter, as long as nobody is harmed then what real difference does it make? I'm not that big a fan of bow hunting, I think a lot of deer get injured and suffer a lingering death by guys who don't practice or know how to hunt. But I'm not going to get up on my high horse and suggest that bow hunting is wrong. I'm all for it! It's hunting and I support hunting in all it's various forms throughout the world. When you start outlawing particular things it's the long (and sometime short) road to outlawing it all. When you get one hunter telling another how he should do it and that how he's doing it is morally wrong, well..... that's exactly what the anti-hunters and the liberal media love and want to see more of. That's what will kill the sport that we all love so much, not the vague chance that 8 gauge shotguns might ever come back into use.

Here's the classic example. I grew up hunting doves in Illinois, I moved to Michigan and there's no season on them here. Few years back the state did it's best to institute a season on them. The liberal media went to work and I actually know hunters and gun owners that voted against it. And you know what, it worked just like they wanted it to, we don't have a dove season here in Michigan and we never will because of this sort of disagreement in the ranks.

So anyway, rant over I promise. This is pointless and it's wasting time I could be spending stringing up a dozen new bluebill decoys I just got.


DLH


P.S. I only shoot a Parker at ducks and geese for the most part. I've been out with them already. My season runs till mid-January then another two weeks on geese late Jan into early Feb. I get out quite a bit have no fear.

Geez, look what I started again, although I think it's worth the discussion.

Forrest, I have no bone to pick with you and respect your sense of sportsmanship, but saying even if something is legal it's still unethical is just plain wrong. Unethical to who? Who is setting these rules of ethics? You say "each of us must make our own decisions" but question our ethics even if we engage in a legal activity? If it's legal it's ethical. I Like you said, we are free to make our own choices. If you're more sporting then others, I respect you for it. There are some things I choose not to do that are legal. I live in Florida and hunting turkeys with a rifle is legal. I choose a shotgun cause I like calling them in. I could hunt them in the fall but don't do that either. I don't kill Jakes. But I don't consider those who kill Jakes, use rifles or hunt in the fall unethical.

Charlie, Francis and Destry have it right. Last time I checked, we still lived in America-the land of freedom. I have no interest in buying a "modern 8 ga" (whatever that is). I'd like to get an old 8 ga. Figure out how to get some ammo. Lug it to the turkey woods and see if I could hit one with it. That's much more challenging then shooting it with a rilfe, which, again, is perfectly legal.

Punt guns: They were used by market hunters who sold their ducks. That was their business. No one is in that business today. It's illegal to sell migratory game-at least here in Florida- not sure what the feds say about it. Like Destry said, no one would use them even if they were legal as they have no real use today.

It's time to rethink all this stuff. If you don't want to use a 8 or 10 ga or rifle, that's up to you, but disparaging others as unethical for engaging in legal activity is not a way to have a meaningful discussion.

I haven't heard anyone mention that there was a problem with procuring ammo for an eight gauge until the last few posts. When my late uncle sent me my grandfather's E Grade Lefever pigeon gun when I was about 10 or 11 years old, my dad told me that the gun had "soft" barrels. I had no idea what "soft" barrels were, so I started reading. I read that the barrels were "Damascus" and should only be shot with black powder. My dad's friend in New York, Bill Lea, a serious gun collector, sent me a loading set. It was an old time BGI set with adjustable shot-powder measure, wad seater, and crimper. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to obtain wads, so, for a few years I used newspaper for wadding, a nail to extract primers, and a hammer to place new primers. Those shells worked just fine in the small quantities I used them. Eight gauge shells can be loaded in the same crude way if you lack some of the tools to load them. Wads are available from Circle Fly and all other loading problems can be solved with hand tools. Believe me, I have been loading eight gauge shells since 1969 and I have never loaded one with a loading tool that had a handle.