More on black powder reloading, go here. http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

From the vintage Sears catalogs:

http://www.tbullock.com/images/BPSG/bpsg-sears.gif
http://www.tbullock.com/images/BPSG/bpsg-sears-1903.gif

Mr. Stone, I'm not sure you want a BP load. Are you asking for a BP or Pyrodex load because of safety? You can load smokeless without worrying about safety if you get the right information. Would you rather avoid the smoke and mess of black powder? There is information out there. Where are you located?

I do!

I do...

You can add me to the list now.

Looks to be 54 of us so far, give or take.

looks like the old short tens family is growing...the short ten is still my favorite.... charlie

mec press
 

I just ordered the short kit for my MEC 10 gauge press. Will I be happy with it?
Any suggestions?

Yes, it is simple to install and remove, the kit is a plate that elevates station 3 4 and 5.

Since you will be trimming hulls to 2 7/8", I got the brass Super Crown Crimper from Ballistics Products to put on the crimp starting station on your MEC.

It really helps with unskived hulls for nice tight crimps.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Sup...tinfo/0740006/

RST hulls
 

Frank
I actually now have a bunch of RST hulls that i paid dearly for fully loaded. i have no regrets though because the RST loads are excellent in my opinion and I have no trouble handing over my money to such a friendly guy as Morris.
Any ideas for duplicating those RST loads?

Pictures of the Titanic Big Ten for BFT
 

I noticed, as I was reading through all of these great posts, that I failed to post pictures of the Titanic 10 that BFT requested. So here are a few shots of the DH 3 frame No 114677, with fluid steel barrels, made in 1902.

.

Frank did you order the six or eight star crimp?

I got the six crimp because that is what RST uses.

Awesome tool -- works great.

I ordered one this morning

tell me more!!!!!:)

Rare shooter-obcessed collector. Have 28 American Breechloaders-all "Small" Makers in 10 ga. 2 3 1/4 in chambers-both E Thomas Jr, 1 4in chamber P Mullin.-rest short chambers.
2 are pinfires-Genez,Sneider. 2 are Hammerless-Hasdell, Sneider-the rest are Hammer Guns. 1 driillng Baker
Reguards
Bill McPhail

bill that 4 inch chambered 10 ga is of great interest to me could you tell us a little more about it... such as weight and lenth of barrels...have you any 4 inch shells for this gun..... charlie

Charlie, The P Mullin(New York City) is a 10 ga Jones Underlever made on a Birmingham
Proofed Barrelled Action. 32 In 10lb 4 Oz Laminated Steel 4 pin lock with Gold Sheild.
It has a Connon Breech-6 in , 4 in Chamber. I have a 4 in Brass shell but have not found
a 4 in 10 ga shell. Have Mullin 8 Ga with 4 1/4 in chamber. Mullin made unadorned shotguns. 1850's to 90's. Have pictures but do not know how to post on this site.
Can send on e-mail if one is sent-mcphailcherkoee@aol.com
Reguards
Bill

I've found the plastic start crimp works just fine. The short kit is nothing other than a spacer to make up for the shorter shell. A piece of wood would work. Where it's needed is in the final crimp - it makes the shell go up in the final crimp the proper distance so the shell isn't " belled out " at the end. If any of you want load data go to our reloading forum. Short 10 loads are the same for longer shells but adjustments will have to be made with the wad so everything will fit. Many times fiber wads will have to be used and they can be bought from www.circlefly.com . Graig has recommended what size wads to use. For nitro I use 18grs of 700X and the Remington SP-10 wad [ with a 16ga wad inside for filler] ; and with BP, 85grs of 3F, fiber wads, and 1oz of shot. Good luck - Paul

Questions for Big Ten Friend
 

All these posts are interesting, and I see that the LC Smiths are also mentioned here. No mention of the Fox or Ithaca guns yet, perhaps later. I have used a friend's 10 Stoeger double for geese in past years, but not since steel shot. Perhaps this is why the main topic has been both turkey hunting and then clays. I can only imagine what a tight fisted load of No. 8 chilled shot from a 10 gauge would do to a clay target at close range- decimated!!

A friend has a very old Damascus barrel 10 gauge LC Smith- very ornate pattern to the barrels, engraved and the side plates are "stepped" at the rear apex on both sides. It is a hammerless with double triggers, fine wood- but his gunsmith cautioned against shooting it as it has the first design bottom barrel lug, with squared corners. He said those were prone to stress cracking, even with the black powder loads of that time.

I understand his opinion, as a tool maker, we learn first off that a radius moves stress, but a 90% corner traps it. Could I get a read on this from BFT please??:bigbye:

A.H. Fox never made a 10ga gun. I think that is too bad they are nice guns. Bismuth and Nice Shot are viable alternatives for waterfowling with a Short Ten.

Frank Cronin hit a clay pigeon at Hausmans early this month with one of his signature 1 1/4 ounce BP loads form his 5 frame hammer 10. I have seen lot of clay pigeons hit over the years, in the 6 digits. I have seen complete dustballs but had never seen this. He shot and the target literally and competely disappeared, POOF. Others on here saw that happen too. Both remarkable and memorable.

Grantham,

You asked for my "read" on something you wrote. Are you asking for my opinion of the strength on a Syracuse made LC Smith or perhaps the accuracy of your gunsmith's statement?

Concerning the design of the early Smith, I'd like to see a clear photo of the Perhaps your gunsmith was refering to a square rather than radius of the intersection where the water table meets the standing breach? Yes, some older guns with that design were prone to cracking. I have also seen actions with radious' that cracked in that area. That stated, this may or not be true for this particular LC Smith. A photo of the gun and serial number would be necessary to conduct research into the strength of whatever era gun it was.

Also consider; under what conditions did the actions crack, what percentage of total produced cracked, and is their any evidence rather than old gunsmith's tales to verify this?

Even if that Smith was of a design of which some actions may have cracked under very unknown conditions, I'd load at 6000 psi and shoot the heck out of it!

Mark

First design barrel lump or lug.
 

Thank you for the prompt and detailed reply. It is obvious that you know double guns, both from collecting but more to the point, from shooting them, and I surmise, shooting them a great deal. Perhaps I misspoke. His older Smith 10 has the first series square cornered barrel lug design. You are 100% correct about the 90% angle from the standing breech to the water table, or floor of the frame. I have seen a few very early Ithaca hammer guns with twist steel barrels that did not have a machined radius at that point, and you could see, with a 10X magnified, the spider webbed stress cracking on the metal areas.

I can ask him about fotos, but he does not have a computer nor Internet access, so I cannot promise that I could get them posted here. Again, thanks for the prompt response to my inquiry.

Grantham,

I am but a nimrod compared to many on this forum. We do all "share" what knowledge that we have. Toward this, thank you for pointing out the obvious!

I thought that perhap you were NOT refering to the barrel lug or as most call it, the recoil lug. The recoil lug protudes under the barrels to "hook" the barrels to the action and absorb recoil.

I forget the technical name of the point where the watertable and standing breach meet. I'm sure the British named it long ago... This 1879 Parker has a square breach intersection. There were some Parkers of this design that cracked.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...ParkerU_06.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...ParkerU_02.jpg

This is the earliest existing LC Smith Syracuse made 10 gauge, made appoximately 1886. This gun is a Grade 2.
Please notice that the breach intersection has a radius.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0s_Lot1_13.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0s_Lot1_15.jpg

The Syracuse LC 10 with later Fulton Chain Damascus and Fluid Steel barreled 10 Gauge Grade 2's.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0s_Lot1_16.jpg

Now that I closely observe the bottom of the recoil lugs on these Smiths I see that the Syracuse gun has square front edges. The later Fulton guns are radiused. The Chain Damascus gun from later Fulton production having a slight radius and the even later fluid steel barreled gun having more radius on the recoil lug. Hmmm... "Stress cracks concentrate at sharp discontenuities of geometric shapes."

In theory recoil might cause the recoil lug to "hammer" the action and crack it because of square fronted recoil lugs. There isn't a lot of metal in the action between recess for the recoil lug and the recess for the hinge pin! Now I can see why LC Smith's designs were changed over time! "Researcher" might know about this happening to early LC Smiths.

All that stated, I''d still load for 6000 psi and shoot that LC Smith!!! I won't hesitate to shoot this Syracuse Smith or early Parker.

PS: I have since had Bachelder restore the metal on the Syracuse LC Smith as he did on the Chain Damascus gun. I'll have to shoot some more "group" photos for your guys who appreciate pretty guns, regardless of maker. They are like blonds, brunettes, and readheads. I like all the pretty ones....

Mark

Good photos- best I've yet seen
 

Yes, of the three photos of the bottom of the receivers, my friend's older 10 hammerless LC Smith has the squared corners, the two guns shown above that look to have the later front corners with a radius. Do you have any load data for the 6000 psi short ten gauge loads you would care to share- with the understanding that if we use your data, you are in no way responsible if something untoward might occur. Always error on the margin side of safety!

Grantham,

PGCA Member (hint, hint...) JB Books compiled a comprehensive martix of Short Ten low pressure loading data. I suggest that you send him a PM with your email address included and he'll probably shoot you his list!

I load a lot with 700x, SP-10 with 16 gauge filler wad, 1&1/8 oz shot and roll crimps. I use 1&1/4 oz with 4756 powder. I do not remember the exact charge weights. Better wait for Mr. Books' list...

Mark

My comprehensive matrix of Short Ten loads contains both high and low pressure, lead, bismuth, a few steel loads, a Nice Shot and even one Tungsten Matrix load. I have referenced all sources of the info.

The spreadsheet is available here on the PGCA forums but the thread is long, people have made posts after it so it is a little bit buried or hard to find.

Here is a link to a quickly put together i.e. crude video I put on YouTube on how to load the Short Ten. Click "Show More" below the video window and you will find a link to the spreadsheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owXs4Eg__BE

You can also find a link to it on DuckHuntingChat along with a few pictures of some waterfowling success with a Parker NH 10ga.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum...7bd50&start=25

Grantham asked about Ithacas. Here are three "Super 10's" All 32-inch, double trigger, extractor guns.

Left gun is the so-called Star model, Full & Full, and is 99+% original in all respects, possibly unfired. Middle one is Mod & Full, with factory BT on an extractor gun, pretty rare I'm told. Right one is also a Star Model and is Full & Full. All three have measured 2-7/8" chambers. I started loading for Short 10's a few months back, and have to say it's pretty addictive. Also very impressive when you turn a clay into diesel smoke.

I don't want to give my time away but all things considered I'm looking forward to ducking this fall and fox calling over the winter. Sorry for the "wifey" background but it's too sunny and HOT to take pics outdoors.

Frank


http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...7/IMG_0730.jpg

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...7/IMG_0732.jpg

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...97/928FFG2.jpg

A fine "Trio of Tens"
 

I noticed two of your three Ithacas have recoil pads, one does not. Does a good quality pad as shown on your Ithaca guns really help with recoil, less with the 2.88" 10 shell than with the 3.50" shell I should guess. I am thinking about getting a ten, but would want it compatible with steel shot for Geese, as well as coppered loads for Turkey.

And my compliments on both your photography skills and your wife's touch of color- I see many guns listed for sale on GI website with a dark and gloomy background, the color ensemble you used actually enhances the nice grain of the gunstocks, and the metal finish as well.

I see the engraved star pattern, these are the later New Ithaca Double guns, and not the earlier Flews Ithacas, correct??:bigbye:

Thanks for the feedback. I'll tell my wife that the pic backdrop went over well. I've never fired the Super 10 that has the HRBP, so I can't comment about the difference in perceived recoil versus a kick pad.

The Super 10's are NID (New Ithaca Double) guns - not the earlier Flues model. And not to be confused with the later heavier Ithaca Magnum guns made for 3-1/2" shells. The Ithaca NID is an excellent design, similar to A H Foxes with a rotary bolt engaging a slot in the top rib extension.

Personally I'd rather hunt with a vintage 10 gauge like the Ithaca, than with a modern 10 gauge SxS that's compatible with steel shot. I'll use bismuth, Nice or similar non-tox for waterfowl, and regular lead shot for turkeys and predators.

A couple of final pics: This one shows the Super-X type shells these Super 10's were adapted to.
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...7/IMG_9165.jpg


Next one shows an excerpt from Askin's excellent 1929 book, Modern Shotguns and Loads, commenting on his test Super 10 after doing extensive velocity and pattern testing ..... "nearest I ever came to an 80 yard gun".
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...7/IMG_9115.jpg

Pre-Parker Remington Short 10
 

Still in the process of acquiring the proper loading equipment, but by all means intend to be among the counted.:bowdown:

1906 Remington 1894 CEO.

Attachment 16368

Will

If/when you acquire that C grade Remmy 1894 (A C grade 10 would be about as common as hen's teeth) I would like to see more pictures here. Graded Remingtons had some beautiful engraving. Good luck.

CEO 10 Engraving
 

JB,

I have the gun. I am in the process of acquiring a loader so that I can afford to shoot it. LOL

Will

Congrats, you are going to enjoying loading for it. I assume you have seen my links on the how to and load data? What a great gun, I should have put on a drool bib before looking :-) Fluid steel barrels to boot and ejectors. Puts my B grade Remmy 10 to shame :crying:

I have had a ball loading and shooting the short tens. Not Parkers but here is picture of my Elsies, 10ga Ideal top, 10ga Quality 3 middle, 10ga Pigeon bottom. The Pigeon is one of 4 10ga Pigeons and the only one with 30" barrels and they are nitro steel.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...0gaLCSmith.jpg

Confusion on letter Grades- 10 Parker
 

Just saw a auction bid for a Parker 10- number 3 frame, serial number 58903- 30" Damascus barrels, double triggers, regular buttplate. What is strange, to me anyway, is the letter grade. I have learned that H stands for hammerless, and an E means automatic ejectors, as on my VHE 12. But this older Parker 10 is described as EH grade. How does that compare to the VH, PH, GH, DH etc. line-up? Would this be safe to shoot with the shorter RST low pressure loads?

EH is a 10ga Grade 2 (GH)

NH is a 10ga Grade 1 (PH)

In the late 1800's and early 1900's those grades in 10ga were $5 more than same grade in any other gauge so Parker gave them a separate designation, EH and NH. Sometime in the early 1900's those designations were dropped. Generally safe to shoot but each gun must be evaluated on it's own merits, barrel wall thickness is the critical factor.

Grantham,

EH Parkers were Grade 2 made in 10 gauge. Later Parker also made 10 gauge Grade 2's as GH guns. I own several EH guns and two or three GH 10 gauges.

Mark

Those are a double WOW!!

Very nice guns.