People were buying though, I can say that.

I am fortunate in having a son who greatly enjoys the Parkers, but in early 30s, not much disposable income to buy his own, so my guns get regular use which is nice. He has one I built for him on his 16th birthday.

As to price, I attended a show yesterday, and inquired on the price for a 16Ga VH on an O frame, with a badly fixed broken stock and forend checkering that looked like a beaver did it, thinking I could buy it reasonably to restock. The elderly gentlemen told me $4000. I put it back on the rack!

I take my son's friends out to shoot sporting clays with my doubles every chance I get. And at least two of them have expressed an interest in acquiring a vintage double.

I think we can say that the Parker Ephemera market is alive and well.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...dmd=1&_ipg=200

:)
PML

or hope springs eternal

For what it's worth:
I just spent some time at a noted "antique arms" show in the Great Lakes area. As a result a few things were glaringly obvious to me:

1) At least 80% of those attending were old men. With grey hair, canes, walkers, limps, and AARP memberships.

2) Same for the table holders.

3) The show tables were strewn with old guns with wooden stocks, surface blemishes and varying patina. Old dudes weren't buying them. And the few attendees under 60 didn't want them.

4) It appeared to me as though the "Boomers" were finally unloading their collections. en masse. But the market had passed them by. And prices were generally low. But still, very little was being scooped up.

This may be an anomaly, but I don't think so. I've had at least half a dozen good English doubles on consignment at a VERY well known midwest shop. Exactly ONE has sold in the last 11 months.

But I'm not worried. I've got a plastic-stocked, black-anodized AR-10 that my son can make a tidy profit on when he retires.

With "collector quality" firearms weather they are shotguns or rifles condition determines most of the price. Rarity as in a small bore Parker or a Pre64 M70 in say 7MM or 300 Savage raises the price bar but without condition you won't realize top dollar.

The OP observed that Parkers seemed to be getting cheaper. Economics 101 tells you that the only way a commodity declines in price is either an increase in supply (That ain't happening with old Parkers) or a decline in demand. For all the reasons discussed above, the answer is - The envelope please - Tah Dah - "decline in demand" - and IMHO will only get worse as us oldies stop buying and our wives sell off our stuff to a shrinking crowd of folks who want these guns

Actually there are more Parkers on the market now than I have seen in 40+ years in the gun business.This morning on Gunsinternational there are 471 Parkers listed.You cannot judge the market by what you see at shows now.Shows are now the wholesale supplier for out of production guns of all kinds.The retail sales take place on the internet.I know of several dealers who only go to shows to buy and then post the guns on the internet.That is the new successsful business model for modern gun dealers.I do agree that the demand is down for the average "shooter"grade guns.High condition and rare guns are bringing more than they ever have in my experience.

Vintage side x sides
 

Hey Guys,

It is a concern of someone like myself who has chosen this as a business and a means of support for my family and retirement. I ask these question often, and others have asked me a lot over the last few years. What I see is that there are replacements for the older gents that are no longer shooting and are therefore selling there guns. The replacements are the 45-55 year olds who have a better than average income, some time to have a dog and read the sporting journals that tout our style of guns, have killed their fair share of game with modern guns, and have become nostalgic with their middle age sanctum. They want a car like they had in college, a motorcycle like they had in high school, and a gun that they just read about or maybe their uncle had. They are our new buyers. The problem is that we, the baby boomers, outnumber the newcomers by a substantial number. The replacements are not coming in at the rate the older gents are going out, but I believe "nostalgia" will always occur. Many experienced shooters decide that the romance is better than the technology, the history is more interesting than modern, and as some other writer said, "it is now how many you kill, by how you kill them" or something like that, becomes the thoughts of the hunter when they wake up to go afield.

There are fewer buyers, no doubt. But I don't see it falling away, just balancing out. Keep in mind, there are fewer good guns out there as time goes by, and that will help keep prices close to what they are now.

Jay Shachter, President
Vintage Firearms, Inc.
www.vfiguns.com

Jay knows the market and knows that the market for above average guns will never go away. Average guns will flood the market and be sold at lower prices, but scarce guns in minty condition will always be sold at high prices if properly marketed. Remember when we were kids, surplus guns were sold at ridiculous low prices, $9.95 and up for great military collector guns that are now sold for thousands. The same thing will happen with average bird guns in the next 20 years, except that they will not appreciate at the same rate as the $9.95 guns did, or maybe they will. It is not a great loss to those of us who chose wisely in our purchases over the last few decades.

I think the future money is in quality small bore guns.

Always has been Rich...






.

I firmly believe I have bought my last 12 gauge. The only shotgun I have for sale is a 12.

My hunting buddy is 30 and loves collector shotguns. He says he will buy everything he can afford, put them in a gun room he will construct, and smoke cigars while ruminating about the days take. He is trying to marry my daughter. Stay tuned

I went to two big decoy auctions in New England last week. Prices were STRong!!!. The Copley sale was near 5million with an average lot price of $27,000. dollars! Auctions now make the market in high end collectibles. Most of the bidders were on the phone or internet. Decoy shows and gun shows are dead in my opinion.

I agree they are about dead, and I really really miss them.
Dave

Went to National Gun Show (Chantilly, VA) this weekend and there were only 4-5 tables throughout that featured vintage shotguns, including Parker, Elsie, Lefever, Browning O/U and A5's. It's billed as the nationals largest regional gun show. Every table seemed filled with defensive type guns, hand guns of any/all make, AR rifles and .223 ammo. Show was crowded. Full of tatoo's, midriffs and Dailey Duke's. Not exactly a Parker crowd. Picked up some good deals on shotgun ammo.

You forgot to mention the amazing selection of body armor, MREs, designer purses, knives & tomahawks, martial arts geegaws (think throwing stars & nunchucks), and bra holsters for concealed carry. Also (almost forgot) the dangerous-looking middle Easterner selling the wonderful selection of fudge.

Don't forget the beef jerky and pickles.

You sure it was fudge... and not C4?

The promoters of that show have done an admirable job of flushing it down the toilet, as they have successfully done to their other venues.

But they are multimillionaires several times over. The fudge guy is a great feature, right up there with the jewelry girl.

Gentlemen, At the last Board meeting we brought up the youth shoot possibility again, and it was decided to go for it I guess it is all right to say a few things about where we are, RST has agreed to furnish all shells, Trophies for different age groups best overall a 16 gauge trojan, redone by Bachelder, At present we are waiting to hear back from Kempler at deep river for our time slot he agreed to do this last year, as soon as the times are decided on it will go to Dean for a full page add for the winter and spring addition, several f us are working to make this happen it will be open to all members and families niece, cousins etc Parkers only this year, we will be asking for help from the membership to get your sons grandsons, nieces, cousins etc to Deep River next spring We can make this happen, details later, Gary

Jay is totally correct in his analysis of what we are going through now.There are more guns being offered to a smaller market.Economics 101, high supply means lower cost.There is an exception to this that Jay touched on but did not elaborate.The market that is out there has turned into a more pure collector market where mint original guns are bringing more than ever.Hunting guns with even slight wear are dropping in price.Keep your heads up and keep working on the younger folks you know.Things will stabilize and good quality will always be in demand.

Bill,Annette is the multimillionaire she got the homes the plane and Steve the big bully is out of the picture.:rotf: J.J.

I agree that the very high end market for doubles will persist, smaller supply of those guns that the very wealthy can pursue.

I just don't see how the rest of the market can hold steady. Seems to me the the number of bird hunters are dropping for obvious reasons. I am about the last of the Mohicans in my area. Historically many doubles were made and used for upland hunting. I know some doubles were used for waterfowl, I doubt if many are used for this now. The only young wing shooters I know are duck hunters who use plastic guns. Doubles for sure aren't used for clays in any appreciable numbers. I attended the Ronald McDonald House charity shoot this summer in Evansville IN, about 250 shooters---0 side by sides present.

It would by good to be young now and have the next few decades to purchase some guns.

Changing times
 

Sounds like Chantilly has changed a lot since I was there with my P grade steel barrel collection It is the same way here, I was asked to display at a regional show that was supposed to bring a lot of collectors in I had a 4 table display and the guy beside me was selling beef jerky, I only counted 5 or 6 real collector displays It takes a long time to put together a nice display and set up at shows, Gary

Terry,Just keep shooting and showing your doubles whenever you can.You will be surprised how many younger guys will be drawn to them when they see them in action.I have a small group of serious hunters who are all shooting doubles now.I am the senior at 68,but most of them are in their 40s.They have come to enjoy shooting the classics just by seeing a few of us bringing our guns to clays shoots and dove shoots.

Sorry guys. I think there is a lot of whistling past the graveyard. We can talk about high grade, or small bore, but the answer is that our hobby is dying. No different from hot rods and many other passions from our childhood.

Ok,I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here. I haven't owned a shotgun or been hunting in 20 years. Took my daughter's lab pup for some runs and I've got the bug again. I bought 3 guns this years, a 16 vh , 12 ph , and a 16 ghe. The ghe just arrived at Bachelder's today and haven't seem it yet. I think I've got each one at a fair price. I look at GI and GB daily. Compared to the shape mine are in there's a lot of beat up guns listed at 1000 to 1500 more than I paid. There are some dealers out there that are grossly overpriced. In my unlearned opinion the guns here are always fairly priced i wish i could afford collectables but I'll have to stick with shooters. 2 cents is about all I've go left in the budget for this year. There's still a couple I'd like to get just for hunting, a 16, 26" barrels for woodcock and a 12 30" for late season pheasants.


As to younger hunters. My oldest daughter's husband ,out of the blue , said hs wants to go bird hunting. After much internet searching he settled on a gsp. I think he'd be fine just going to pheasant, quail farms. Im going to try to take him to some of the places i used to go woodcock and grouse hunting . The last time i was at their house he showed me a 870 he's got. My god,it felt like a lead pipe filled with cement. I told him i got a couple of sxs's 100 yeras old. Aren't you afraid they're gonna blow up was his response and he's never even heard of Damascus. I think there's a chance i can convert him unlike my youngest daughter who's all camo plastic and ducks. When i get my ghe home I'm ill let him handle his and then mine and tell him if you want to be a upland bird hunter these are the classic upland bird hunting guns. Try it ,you might like it.

Mr.Dallas,It is not dead,just changing.

I have to agree interest in old guns is fading a sad thing for lovers of quality and hand workmanship. The real issue is that the newer guns are very capable and real value to young shooters. I have mixed feelings about this as I want to see younger people shoot and hunt the new technology in auto loaders has come a long way from the old 1100. New Beretta autos and Bennelli guns are tough as nail as hard to beat for the performance and money. I shoot them all Berettas O/U Perazzi Rizzini O/U they are all fine guns but I have 5 Beretta autos 2 20 ga a AL1 and a 302 plus 3 303's 12 gage 2 sporting 1 trap and I can shoot them just as well as my other O/U guns. They work but there is no pride of ownership and love of quality involved that is what is sad to me. At my age it is the fun factor that exceites me last week I shot a Martini 12 gage single shot what a blast and everyone wanted to try it. I have a Husqvarna hammer gun I shoot also and that is what helped me get a Parker Hammer gun. I have been encouraging my friends to get into vintage guns for hunting and shooting. The one thing that the newer guns have is composite stocks and multy shell compasities which is so good for duck hunting especially salt water.

When the newer guns fall into a state of disrepair and cease to function the Parkers, Fox, Winchester 21's and such will still be going strong. I hope there are still places that they can be used and game to be used on.

While a Benneli might work ok and be affordable just as a synthetic stocked rifle that you can buy as a complete package for $400 will, neither has any soul, there is no allure of times past, no mystery, no pride in craftsmanship.

At the end of the day what really matters is young people getting involved with the shooting sports and if they do it with a Benneli or a Remington or an AR15:eek: then it's better than having them sit around the house playing video games.

Sadly, this is the crux of the problem. Today's society has virtually NO appreciation of history, heritage or craftsmanship -- all values associated with the Parker and other fine doubles.

Thus, we have utilitarian cars, degrading societal values, cable TV... and plastic stocked guns with 10-shot capacity and spray paint finishes. Perfect for slaughtering game by the cubic yard.

Sorry, but it won't get any better.

I have thought about this for some time and my observation is that only a very few of the younger group will have these feeling (which I share with you Rich).

Here is why I say this:

Our shared feelings of 'nostalgia' are based on our knowledge of history AND the world that these guns were born into. The younger Americans, for the most part, don't have any nostalgia because they don't connect with the past, as we do.

When we were young, we learned history in school, our parents world talk about 'the old days' and how the family handled hard times as the family sat around the dinner table and we listened. We studied the past by watching 'news reels', collecting baseball cards, gathering up old glass insulators or bottles, searching antique shops and using old 'stuff' rather than throwing it away. We collected coins and stamps and when we did, I'm sure we would wonder who might have used it; did Lincoln hold it or was it at the Little Big Horn? We were made aware of the past and we carry that with us today.

Now, look at the current generation: They don't learn history in school. Their parents (us) are too busy to sit around on the porch or at the dinner table (family dinner at the same table?) to talk about .... They don't collect anything to get a feeling of history. They are consumed with 'now' and rarely consider the past. Their interests are in computers, the internet, cell phones, graphical games; all of which change so fast that they work to keep up with the future, not remember the past.

I have little hope that those under the age of 35 will ever come to think of these guns in the same way we do. They will never comprehend the talent it took to create them without a knowledge of detailed history.

The lack of history knowledge is the root of many areas of my concern about what life will be like for my grandchildren.

The best way to get people interested in vintage doubles is to take them hunting.. I think once you get someone out in the woods or in the field it's a natural progression to vintage doubles. I'm 31 and just recently started upland hunting within the last 5 years, as soon as I hunted for the first time behind my cousins English setter I was hooked. Then I wanted to learn everything and read everything I could find on the subject. That naturally lead to Parkers.

While I don't have the shooting experience of most on this board, I've been around bird hunting in the Northeast for over four decades in New York, Vermont and Maine. We commonly encountered other hunters and they typically shot SxS and O/U guns out in the field. Within the past decade or so I've seen many more pumps and semi-autos, or shiny new O/U guns. While it is good to see younger guys and gals participating, I agree that there seems to be much less appreciation for vintage guns, and many valid factors for that have been mentioned in this thread.

For me, there is a quality in these older guns, and Parkers in particular, that I have difficulty putting into words. I've referred to it as a "certain richness of character" that newer guns, even high-end guns, don't seem to have. I am always quick to say that this is my personal perception and I do not mean to insult anyone who has chosen a newer gun, or infer any less quality in their choice.

For some, they may just have never been around older guns and don't know about them. I frequently try to engage others in what these guns mean to me. Most are surprised that I know the month and year that the gun was made, where it was shipped, it's grade and options, type of Damascus, engravers by name, etc. I get odd looks when I say: "this gun is coming up on its 116th birthday next month." For many, they "just have a gun" and it meets their needs which is perfectly fine with me, but I take it as an indicator that there is decreasing appreciation for older guns.

One factor that has not been mentioned is that many opt for a single barrel or O/U gun because they don't like the SxS sight picture. Much of what you see in writing today seems to point towards a single barrel sight picture as an "easier" or "recommended" option for new shooters.

I shot my very first round of Sporting Clays two Sundays ago and it was a very interesting (and humbling!) experience. I group of guys agreed to take me with them to show me the course and they were very generous with coaching and calling my missed shots. I heard "behind on that one" and "stopped your swing again" a lot.:whistle: Another one I liked was "you knocked some dust of that one, but we don't count those."

There were at least 50 shooters there in all, and I was the only one with a SxS. By far, most were shooting new/newer custom O/U guns that were specifically designed for the sport. As a side note, almost all 12ga too; I saw only one other 20ga shooter. Only one older gentleman asked me about my Parker and his comment was that he did not like straight-grip guns. While my shooting was not on par with many that day (53/100), I had a blast and I am looking forward to many more rounds with my vintage guns.

Here is some good news a lot of sporting clays shoots have different classes SXS/ Pump /subgague so that is a big plus for SXS guns

The shooting venues are there it's the younger participants that are lacking.

Amen Phil most of the shows on the outdoor channel make me vomit