i have done a couple test. shot a 1940's 12 ga 1 oz of 4's, in the only 2 test i did . I shot at 40 yds 30 in. circle with a full choked VH . i got very tight patterns, both test were done about a year apart because i couldn't believe it was that tight the 1st time. with the same gun in my reload it wasn't near as tight ,some where there is a post of this and pics of the pattern.
scott

I dont see choke as a solution for missing so much as contributing to the results of a hit. Did the clay get smoked or just shatter? just a chip? Did the bird have two broken wingtips when the dog brought it back, or was it a bloody pulp BEFORE the wirehair got it? Most examples are much subtler and I think paper can show some of that but as pointed out, its really not whats happening in the real world.

“Got that: “…a cylinder bore will alter the direction and spread less than a choked bore.” “

That’s correct depending on how you read the statement. Cylinder choke is the widest spread. No constriction, wide spread and as distance increases, so does the size of that pattern. The tighter the choke the farther the pattern stays “close” and is dense enough to crush a target or cancel a game bird’s flight.

As game has become scarce over the last many years, I have become much more concerned over the ethics of the sport and respect for the game. I try to always use a gun properly matched to the conditions. Enough choke to cleanly kill the animal and not so much to as to destroy it. We are asking the game to die for our benefit and it's demise shouldn't be wasted.

Clays are an entirely different question. I went for years changing chokes for every station, trying to optimize my shots. I then read a long interview with George Digweed. When asked about chokes, he said he shot a Beretta provided by them, but the only chokes he used were F/F which were rusted into place (his words). His reason was that he could tell within a few inches how far off he was on each shot. If he hit the top front section of the bird on a shot, then he would adjust down and back slightly on the next. Probably one of the key methods to him developing into the best wingshot in the world at the time. Once you reach that level there is not a lot of reason to change to a more open choke. However, I don't believe it is a method that is relevant to an ethical hunting situation.

I hope Im not beating a dead horse here but I had to get my christmas present out and test my assertions. So we have a 12 ga ph with cyl and full barrels as measured with a drop in choke gauge. At Foster's 23 yrds (ish) I note a 22" pattern in the apparently cylinder barrel. Some flyers, but clearly effective and to credit the no choke proponents- not a spray-all blown pattern at all.
Both fiber and plastic were about the same, fiber was better dispersed-less bunched but still covered the same area.
The full choke was near 100% inside a 16" circle at the same range.
All with spartan shot.

Andy Duffy's comment to Larry the Gun Guy is pertinent to shooters who think using tight chokes for all around clay target shooting is fatal to good scores. Duffy is correct in saying that misses are not by the size of the pattern edges, but are in feet or yards because of head lifting and barrel "peeking". A shooter who can keep his head on the stock and resist peeking at the barrel or sight can shoot consistent 23s or 24s at 21 yard skeet birds with a full choke gun.

Duffy was at our club two years ago shooting one Tuesday night on the five stand . I let him shoot the first 8 gauge I acquired . He’s a decent enough fellow . I’ve shot skeet for forty plus years , shooting a straight round with a full choked gun semi regularly is nothing if you’ve been shooting skeet for a long time .

I understand more open chokes for upland game, but I'm an old pigeon shooter, and I believe that tight chokes help a good shot, but hurt a poor shot.

Mike:

A full reading of the impromptu discussion on some conjectured anomalous effects of choke boring vs. those of true cylinder suggest to me a different conclusion. That may be just me –- I have been puzzling over the points made ever since they arose on 7-21-21.

The digression was in the thread started by Jay announcing the purchase of a pre-choke era cylinder bore Parker hammer gun.

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33795

Russell

The late, great Michael McIntosh once wrote in a magazine article that, due to the improvements in ammunition (plastic shot cups and progressive burning powders) , choke boring is obsolete today. He was a great double gun writer and enthusiast but I have always suspected he occasionally wrote things to see what kind of "fallout" would occur.

Choke boring is certainly not obsolete, just ask pigeon shooters, crow shooters, dove hunters, turkey hunters, etc. I played the registered sporting clays game for over twenty years. I began by thinking I needed to swap screw-in chokes to match the station's presentations. I worked my way up to AA class, while at the same time searching for just the right gun. A Perazzi MX8 trap gun came my way, choked full and full. I swapped the buttstock to one more suitable for sporting, and had the chokes opened to .020" and .020"(M and M). I soon punched my way into M class shooting that gun, some 13 years ago. I still shoot it at sporting, though I no longer pursue the tournament "circuit", and have never questioned my choice. IMO, tight chokes will make a better shot out of you, all else being equal. Dust promotes self confidence, chips do not. Self confidence helps you get into the "zone".