I think you've finally figured it out Dean. I've found that 7 1/2's in a modified to full choke will kill any upland bird that I care to hunt.

It all depends on the typical range at which your shots are taken. My grouse coverts are very thick. A ten yard shot is common with about 25 yards being the maximum before winter. Any choke at all is a handicap in my coverts. The first barrel of my grouse guns are IC but I shot a 16 bore for years with a cylinder bore. With an ounce of 9’s, no grouse could fly through my patterns up to about 35 yards. I patterned the gun at all typical grouse ranges and so I knew what the gun would do. One of the reasons I have been so successful with #9’s is that you can shoot open bores and still have enough pellets to fill out the pattern at the ranges my shots were taken. Go to a 7 ½ or larger and you can have gaps in the pattern at the further end of grouse shots. An ounce of 7 ½ contains 579 pellets while an ounce of 7 ½ contains only 346. It makes a big difference when the tight cover stops many of the pellets from reaching the bird. The old time grouse hunters knew this which is why they shot fine shot.

Not every grouse covert is like mine are, especially in the west. There the shots at grouse are typically longer. My average shot at grouse in Saskatchewan was probably at around 25 yards. The cover is much less thick and the birds are scattered and not concentrated like they are in my home coverts. I used my shaptail and hun gun bored modified and full with #6’s and did well. I didn’t take shells specifically for the grouse. If I did, I would have probably shot 8’s.

I highly recommend that grouse hunters shoot some patterns at the typical ranges that they shoot their birds. If you hunt in thick coverts you'll see that tight chokes are a real handicap. Compare a cylinder or improved cylinder spread with a modified of full barrel and you'll see what I am talking about. Absolutely no room for error with the tighter chokes and birds messed up with many pellets on the one's you do hit. Go on out there and shoot some patterns and then tell me what you find.

I think some of you guys will join the ranks of Flanigan, Foster. Spiller and Schaldach. :)

Thirty years ago my sons and i paced off the distance to fallen woodcock, average of 13 yards. Grouse found in the same areas 20 yards. We went to spreaders and found much more success. Afternoons in the old orchards 25 to 30 yds with ic and mod. Your milage my differ. All in western Maine, most if not all in typical thick cover, some spruce, lot of alder.Number 8 mornings 6 afternoon in different cover. But the most important thing is how you point the gun not what is in it.

True but that doesn't diminish the need for open bores and light shot. This type of shooting is instinctual and open patterns of fine shots will turn misses into hits. You have a much larger margin of error. I would venture that few birds would be taken in my coverts with modified or full chokes and 7 1/2 shot. Which is why my grandfather calmed me down when I found a high brass 7 1/2 case in my coverts. He laughed when I told him what kind of shell and the shot size and said "don't worry, that fella won't be getting any of your birds".

I'm a fan of 8's and open chokes. I think the heavier shot will penetrate the cover better and when it reaches the bird it provides a cleaner kill. As the foliage drops and shots become somewhat longer I'll use 7's or 71/2 and a IC/M choke set up.

That's an interesting thought. Number 8 shot would seem to be a decent compromise. I used to go to 8's in the winter when shots could be a bit longer. Even with the leaves down and cover opened up a bit, my shots are still relatively close and so I now stick to 9's throughout the season.

I’ll let my hero Wiilliam Harnden Foster weigh in here with a quote from his classic New England Grouse Shooting, first published in 1942. In my opinion, this is the finest book ever written on grouse hunting.

Speaking in the third person, Foster wrote:
“…….in his right hand barrel during the earlier part of the season, he finds No. 9 chilled shot the most effective with perhaps No. 8 in the left barrel for the longer ranges. Later in the season when the leaves are off, the shots longer, one may use No. 8’s in the right and 7 ½ in the left thinking to take advantage of the more sustained velocities of the of the heavier shot over the longer ranges. However, this is not the real answer for, with the change to the larger pellet, he is sacrificing his required density for it should be remembered that while there are some 585 No. 9 chilled shot in an ounce, there are but 345 No. 7 ½. This change to larger shot in a gun bored for the purpose of density of pattern with smaller shot is one of the chief sources of crippling and your thoughtful grouse hunter will prefer to stick to his No. 9’s (in the right barrel) and No. 8’s (in the left barrel) throughout the season and, at the same time, to his conservative ranges.”

I would take into consideration that in Mr. Foster's day the birds were far more plentiful and one could pick and choose his shots. Unfortunately this is not the case in grouse country (or any game country) today. Also I don't shoot a 1oz load but stick to 7/8 in my 16's and if the woodcock flights are in I like a 3/4oz load in the 20.
What works for one person might not work for another but 8's early on and 7's or 71/2 in the later portion of the season has worked for longer than I care to admit:)

I agree with everything you said with one small exception. It's true that there were more birds in Foster's and my grandfather's day, but I doubt that they passed on any fair shots. My coverts are similar to what Forster experienced, so his recommendations hit home with me. And not only because I came to the same overall conclusions but because the rules haven't changed for my type of coverts. Less birds but those that offer shots, present the same type of targets at the same ranges.

As I mentioned, not all grouse coverts are the same. So I wouldn't be foolishly presumptuous and try to tell others what to use. I can only relate my experiences and those of some who came before me with similar circumstances.

I remember one old time grouse hunter telling me as a boy, "what you need for partridge is an ounce of #9 and it don't make no difference what gauge you fire it from." Not sure I totally agree, but I understood his point.

I would venture to say the grouse covers in Bill Foster's day were much the same as today with consideration to where a fellow chooses to hunt. In many covers open shots are the norm and in others shooting through the foliage is the norm. I'm lucky enough to have it both ways where I hunt in Vt.
Living here in Andover and being quite familiar with the places Bill and his cronies hunted I'm pretty sure he could pick his shots when he needed to. In other words, don't risk the shot if it looks impossible or if you'll only maim the bird.

I'm going to guess the last etching is of a grouse taken at about 45 yards with the left barrel of his Cyl/Full Parker twenty and judging by the devastation of the bird, there wasn't much left for the cook to work with.....:eek:


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Some things stay the same. I would imagine that any of us would pass up any shot that was questionable. The worst days for hunting grouse are windy days. They are on edge and rarely hold for a dog. They flush silently and generally at the edge of range. It always amazed me that grouse flushes can be so loud but yet then can fly away at the same speed with no noise at all.