Contact
 

Richard ; Please contact me at

austin.w.hogan@valley.net

Brst, Austin

Chuck,

How did it go at the Southern. Did you get more neasurements whle you were there. I am extremely interested in hearing what you found. I very much wish I could have been there, but my wife did not feel well enough to make he trip and I could not leave her here alone. I have been very tied up during the last week with Miriam and he new Brittany pup that we just picked up on Thursday.

Sorry to disappoint you Richard but nobody came forward at the Southern to have their barrels checked. I wasn't in the tent constantly but I left my barrel mic there for anyone to use.

11-gauge Parker's
 

Gary,

I am sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner, but my wife has not been well and I have not been on the Forum for the past few weeks. I see you have a number of very interesting early Parkers. Could you please post the letter for Serial No. 3834?. Also have you checked the diameter of the chambers for this gun?

Thanks,

Richard

Richard I am currently in Tenn, will be here till Tuesday once back home I will be able to get that info for you. Gary

Gary,

Will your travels take you anywhere near Huntsville? If you could drop by I would love to meet you and talk about hammer Parkers and show you some interesting documents. If you have a spare moment, please give me a call (256-337-4082).

Richard

Richard

Richard I am hosting a prevost rally here in Tenn, 50 people and the only time I get is right about bed time to answer e=mails, will call when I get back to V.A. Thanks Gary

Hi,
I have an 11 ga. that I am cleaning up a bit. I have had the bores cleaned to a mirror finish. The gun is a strange animal. Great shape, but came to me with a Tiger Maple stock and an unadorned walnut forend. It was made in 1884 and has the more conventional top lever. I have not done anything to the gun, other than cleaning out the barrels. As you mentioned, it will work as a 12 ga.
I'm trying to determine what was original, the Tiger Maple stock or the forend. No checkering on the forend (may have worn off), and looks like 18LPI checkering on the stock. If the stock is not original, it was very well done. Either case it is old. Very substantial gun. Came with stub twist barrels. All serial numbers match. Grade is "T".
Any body know if Parker ever made Maple stocks?
I'm about to send in a letter on it.
Thanks,
Carl

Carl,

A letter would be useful, but I am wondering why you think it is an 11-gauge. If the barrels have bores that have been honed their dimensions can not be used to establish that the gun is an 11-gauge. Also it is clear that all Parker 11-gauge guns seem to have been made before Serial Number 6000. It would be helpful if you could post photos of the stock, forend and barrels. Also, do the serial numbers match?

Richard

Hi Richard, I don't know about the serialization issue. I sent the barrels to a highly respected guy in Oklahoma that specializes in barrels. I told him I bought as an 11 ga. and he verified that it was indeed an 11 ga..I can call him and ask what the original diameter and wall thickness was. He did the barrels in March. At the time he shipped them back to me, he made the comment it would make a great black powder gun with brass shells from RST. I have not pursued that. All the serial numbers match. I'm confused by the stock/forend wood difference. The barrels are 32" and ended up at full and improved.They have a very nice patina with a vivid twist pattern. I'm comparing the size of the bores on the Parker with my very original FoxAE 12 ga, and the parker bore is bigger and has more metal to it. This is NOT a 12 ga.
Richard, I'm not interested in selling it, but I am interested in getting the stock forend issue resolved. I want to match them, but I don't know if it's to Maple or walnut.Again, the maple stock is so well fitted and so old, it makes me believe it might have been made that way. It's a whole lot easier to replace a forend than it is a stock.
I was told that Parker NEVER made a double that wasn't checkered...do you know if that's true?
Thanks for your interest.
Carl

Carl,

Regarding the last point --- it is definitely not true. Parker made what the customer wanted. I have seen order book entries where a $250 Parker "A" grade was ordered to have no engraving whatsoever. If someone wanted a Parker with no checking, that is what he would have received. I would be very interested in learning what the bore diameters were before and after the barrel work was done, and at what posits the measurements were made. Of course, if the bores needed honing they were probably badly pitted,, so unless measurements were made at several positions, the values obtained might not reflect the initial dimensions when the barrels were finished at the factory.

Also, I typed without thinking when I said there were no 11-gauge Parkers with Serial Numbers above 6000. Bill Furnish reported that he had four 11-gauge Parkers with higher numbers--S/N 8900, 12053, 14827 & 25991. Parker 8900 was chambered 0.810" for 12A brass or 12-gauge paper shells. Parker #14827 was chambered for 10 gauge shells (0.851') but the S/N 12053 and 25991 guns were both chambered for 11A brass or 11 paper shells (0.825" to 0.830").

Could you please let me know what is the Serial Number of the gun and do he numbers all match? Can you also send photos of the stock and forend?

Yours,

Richard

Richard,
ALL the numbers match. The serial number is 40419. I do have a Choke gauge, I recently bought from Connecticut Shotgun. The gauge goes as high as 12ga. One of the barrels stops the gauge at the very last stop...Cylinder, the other barrel is too big for the gauge and it slides completely in... easily. I will supply you with specifics on the barrel measurements tomorrow when I call the barrel guy.
I will send you pics of the stock and forend, but I have the stock removed from the receiver..is that ok? Do you have an email address you are willing to give me, so I can email the pics?
Carl

Richard,
I have sent in the money for the Parker letter. I called the gunsmith who did the barrels and he said the original bore was .752/753 and he opened it up to .765. The thinnest spot after the job was complete was.33. He does not remember what the chamber size was. I asked him again about the gauge and he said it's tough to say because a lot of the old Parkers were just plain big.
I have not heard from you about an email to send you pictures. Is it because you were under the impression that the gun was for sale? If so, I am sorry I mislead you. I will continue to share with you what I find out.
Carl

Carl,

I understand the gun is not for sale. I was asking for images to try to help answer your questions. The chamber size you can easily answer yourself without any tools. Slip in a modern 12 gauge shell. If it fits just like in any modern 12gauge gun the chambers are 12 gauge. If the shell is very loose try a 10 gauge shell. If it can not be slid in then it is probably chambered 0.825 for an 11A shell. Have you looked up he Serial number in the Parker Serialization book?

Also are you sure the stock is maple? If so, the gun was probable restocked, as I have never heard of Parkernusing maple for a stock. There are other experts here who would know far more about this question than I do, and maybe they will comment on that point.

I hope this is helpful.

Richard

Carl,

Sorry, I forgot to list my e-mail.

Entogonia@AOL.COM

Richard

Hi Richard,
It seems to take a 12 ga. shell just perfectly, maybe a little play, but not so you'd notice. I am a wood person and it's tiger maple. I've taken the pics to show you. They will be downloaded later today. I have looked up the number in the Parker double book set. It was made in 1884. I don't know of another book? I did dial in the serial number before sending the letter and there is information available on it.
I believe you are right. I was hoping that it had been stocked in Maple, because the cost to replace the stock is a lot more than the forend. However, setting up the forend for the pics, there is no doubt it's original. The stock is the issue.
Thanks,
Carl

Carl,

The Serialization lists Parker Number 40419 as a 12 gauge with 32" barrels in Stub Twist made in 1884.

Richard

Carl,

The other book is

Parker Gun: Identification and Serialization. 2002.

You can get it at Amazon.com for $37 and it is a must for every Parker enthusiast.

Richard

Hi Richard,
Just sent several pictures to your email address.
Carl

I will order the book right away. Well that answers my question. Thanks a bunch.
Carl

Carl,

Thanks for the photos. The forfend looks original, and
the stock looks like a later addition. the bore dimensions are 11-gauge, but it is possible that the barrels were honed at an earlier date to remove pitting. The chambers are clearly 12-gauge and your letter will probably list the gun as 12-gauge with 32".stub twist barrels.

Richard

Richard, thanks for your comments. I'm still hoping for the letter to say it was an 11 ga. In either case, I start the refit this weekend with a nice piece of walnut I ordered. Today is my birthday and I'm getting the book.
Carl

11-Gauge Parker's
 

Carl,

I would very much like to talk to the man who did work on your barrels. He might know if here was evidence that they had been previously honed before he received them. Also did they measure 0.751" or so at several places along the bores, or only where the pitting was worst. If so the pitting could have made 12-bore barrels into the 11-bore range.

However, if they were originally bored to the .751" dimension, then the gun was made an 11, even if Parker may have chambered it for 12gauge shell and called it a "12". It is well known throughout the world that it is the bore dimension and not the clambering of the gun that determines the gauge size. If you call a lemon a pineapple, it will still not be large and sweet.:rotf::)

But it is clear that the Stock books contain many discrepancies in this area. I have an early lifter D-grade 11- bore Parker ~0.755" with 30" barrels that was chambered for 10 gauge shells and is listed in the Parker Serialization as a 12 gauge with 30" barrels. If the stock book listing were based on the chambers, then this gun should have been listed as a 10 gauge. However there is clear evidence as Austin Hogan has pointed out that Parker over bored many guns in the 7000 to 70,000 range. The question that needs to be answered is --- Why? They clearly knew how to make perfect 12-bore barrels as we heve found in many early guns with .729" bores. Could it be that they did this to reduce the pressure that may have helped reduce failure in lower grade barrels? To answer this, we need to find out if there are any written factory memos, letters or records that may solve the Problem. Austin mentioned a King patent for tooling that caused the barrels to be overbored, but I have not been able to find it. The only one I remember having in my collection of Parker Patents related to a method of encasing the barrels in Plaster of Paris to keep them from vibrating or twisting during the boring proces, but that would not alter the bore diameter. If anyone could upload the King tooling patent, I would very much appreciate it, as I am still trying to understand how to unravel this mystery. Also, it would be interesting to know if thare are many 12-gauge barrels in this serial range that are bored .729", and if so are they also on the lower grade guns.

Please put me in contact with your barrel man, as he might have some answers to these questions.

Yours,

Richard

Carl,

I forgot to say Happy Birthday. The Serialization Book is a perfectly suitable birthday present for you to get for yourself. It is wonderful. I use mine all the time.

Richard

Hi Richard,
Dean Harris...Skeets Gun Shop.
918-456-4749. Located in Oklahoma. Nice guy and very knowledgable about old barrels. I personally don't think it had ever been bored before. Let me know what you find out?
Thanks very much.
Carl

My first time here...SUCCESS...thank you Autumn daze.
You have filled in all the missing info. about my Draper cartridge and how it was reloaded.
Also, I've had this one in my collection for years and only now have been able to document it and the original Wills patent, as well. I could never even find it via Google!
This Forum is obviously a valuable resource...

Well, I bought what appears to be an 11 gauge at the Southern Side by Side this past weekend. The serial number is 14923. A 10 gauge shell does not fit and a 12 gauge shell is very loose. A research letter is going out today, so we will see what it turns up. The gun appears in original condition, except for a replacement hammer. Barrels are 32 inches, bores cleaned up easily, wood in decent but oily condition.

I remember seeing an 11 ga for sale at the Southern. Kevin McCormick might have had it.

just a general note on my 12 ga. Parker. Richard and I had a discussion about it last year and whether it was an 11 or 12 ga. It measures out as an 11, but the 12 ga. shell snugs in real nice. no sloppiness at all. The gun is just about finished, with a nice new utility grade walnut stock fitted to it. Have a few more coats of linspeed and it's done. Still a question in my mind...and probably Richards, as to why the darn gun has a .751 bore and be lettered as a 12 ga. Dean at skeets, who cleaned my barrels out, thinks it might be because Parker wanted to keep the pressures reasonable and the gun more reliable. My original barrels are stub twist...low man on the totum pole. I think they are beautiful, and I would go after geese with those 32" barrels. I have absolutely no doubt the gun will shoot for years to come. The only problem is the weight of the gun. A tad bit heavy by todays standards. The serial number is in the 44000's and it's a straight hammer gun not a lifter.
Carl

One must be aware that the Parker chambers are tapered. Some shells will not go into the chambers all the way. I have a 10 g Colt with straight chambers and a shell fired in it will not go all the way into my old Parker hammer 10 gauge. I use brass shells for the Parker and fired some in the Colt. They are now dedicatd Colt shells. David

Hi David,
Not clear on what you are saying. Are you saying my gun may still be an 11ga.
Also, Dean at skeets mentioned brass shells and said my gun would be a great candidate to use them. Since I've never used them, I don't know what's different about them. The full story shortened, is that Dean said my gun was perfect to use as a brass shell black powder gun. He said just wash out the barrels with hot soapy water and that's all you have to do. I never went any further with it, because I don't want to get into black powder ammo.
Carl

In my case, The guns I refer to are both 10 gauge but one has tapered chambers and the other does not. Brass shells fired in the straight chambers will not then fit in the tapered chambers. I had Rocky Mountain Brass make shells for me. They can make shells any size so you can get 11 gauge from them. You can load the shells with low pressure nitro loads if you don't want the mess of black powder. Black powder can be cleaned up with a water and Balistol solution that protects from rust. You needto have your chambers measured properly before having brass shells made. David

Thanks david, Appreciate the clarification. Other than fitting the ga. properly, is there any other advantage to brass shells?
Carl

Brass shells can be reused many many times. If you have an 11 gauge they be the only shells you can get. David

I was thinking of getting some gauge mates for mine so it can hold 12 gauge RST shells. Surprisingly for an old, odd gauged Parker, mine has modern dimensions and handles very well when I swing it.

Mine swings well too, it's stopping the swing that's troublesome. The darn thing is very heavy but well balanced and with those 32 inch barrels, it can reach out there very well. I exercise with an old cape gun I have, made by Remington. Ten ga. one barrel and 40-50 sharps in the other barrel. It weighs in at 11 pounds. After half an hour with the Remington, the Parker feels like a modern 20 ga.

It sounds like ours are very similar. Mine has 32" barrels too. Mine is on a No. 2 frame.

Yup, mine too. Mine is a field grade "Stub Twist" and in very good shape. No checkering on either the forend or stock, but I think I will have it checkered. I think it will make the gun look much nicer. Supposedly the Stub Twist was the lowest grade, but to me it has so much character, I don't mind in the least.

Mine are plain twist. Twist barrels are underrated, in my opinion. The wood on mine is uncheckered as well and I will probably leave it that way, but I am tempted to have someone leach out the oil and cigar smoke smell in the wood.

I believe I read somewhere, probably TPS, that Stub Twist was considered a higher grade of barrels, ranking between Plain Twist and Damascus.