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-   -   Steel Shot in Parkers (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4912)

John Dunkle 08-13-2011 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Day (Post 48361)
.....John, can you delete this whole damn thing. This whole thing is just a mess and there are too many opinions to discuss it. ....

There certainly ARE a lot of opinions - mine included - included a "sidetrack" with Chris and myself - but... But...

BUT - there are a few who have contributed some good opinions and analysis. Drew, Bill, Eric, John Davis, yourself - just to name a few of the several...

If this thread gets "out if hand" I can and will delete it. Between now and then, though..??

Let's let it stand and see what folks have to say - as was the original intent of the original post.

Just from my end of the telescope,

John

Pete Lester 08-13-2011 07:41 PM

I think what we need is some practical testing. Surely there must be a sound Trojan or VH 2 frame 12ga someone has that could in a worst case scenario be sacraficed. Spend the year shooting the hell out of it with steel shot at clays and see what happens. I rather much doubt there is any danger to eyes or limbs. Barrel scoring not likely, maybe bulging in the choke area but how many shots would it take, thousands would be my guess and probably more than most will ever shoot. I suspect the high velocity of off the shelf steel loads combined with the higher pressures will stress old wood but handloaders might be able to tame them down a bit. Back in the early 90's I shot a Miruko Daly o/u 20ga F/M 3" steel 3's and 4's. Guess what, dead ducks, gun is fine. Sherman Bell proved his hunch by testing, the same thing will need to be done here, but the kind of testing we need will mean shooting thousands of rounds, it won't be quick. Nobody should think shooting steel shot in a Parker is OK, but then again maybe with the right loads and chokes it is no big deal. Again nobody should do it without understanding they are putting their gun at risk, but until there has been some extensive testing we would do well to keep a skeptical but open mind.

Christopher Lien 08-13-2011 09:43 PM

I think Robin's recent post (attached-below) pretty much encapsulated the whole damn thing, and any further rehashing beyond this point is just cycling in circles... When intelligent people read this thread for reference they can draw their own conclusions and ultimately make their own informed decisions... My vote remains the same, No steel shot in any of my vintage doubles, why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...

Best, CSL
_____________________________

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Lewis (Post 48356)
Bruce, you keep taking shots at FAQ's because we don't address steel shot or other issues that you find dear to your heart. I don't know what an FAQ on this topic will do for you? We have pages upon pages on this forum discussing the topic and a simple FAQ isn't going to resolve anything any better that here; and in my opinion, NOTHING has been resolved here. What would you have me add to the FAQ's?

I went to the Winchester site to see what they had to say and their advice is:
"Winchester steel loads can be fired in shotguns of modern manufacture. It is recommended that steel be fired only in shotguns with no more restriction than an improved modified choke."
So, even they are soft on the issue.... "modern manufacture", whatever that decodes to in a court of law? My opinion is that Parker shotguns are not modern manufacture except in the eyes of the ATF.

I have added all the FAQ's found on this site and have been careful not to post one that could get someone hurt. This topic falls into that realm and "I" will not be posting a FAQ on the use of steel shot in a Parker unless it states something along the line of "never shoot steel shot in a Parker".

If anyone sees an FAQ that is wrong, let me know and I will fix it; if anyone sees a FAQ that could cause someone, anyone, to be harmed, let me know and it is gone, deleted, removed,...; if you think these standards for FAQ's are wrong, let me know and I will have my access to FAQ's removed and someone else can do it. I will always error on the side of safety.

I agree with Eric that to post opinions to a public forum where the uninformed reader takes an opinion as fact can be a big mistake. And the FAQ page may have more authority to the novice than this thread, so care must be taken when adding one to insure it can't lead to an accident of any kind.

:dh:

.

Fred Preston 08-13-2011 10:00 PM

I have a go to GH 12ga #2 frame with sawed off 26" bbls. Didn't cost much (relatively) but has turned into a money pit. I blew out the left bbl. a few years ago with a 1&1/2 oz mag load just at the end of the forend (I still have five on my left hand). I sent the gun to Kirk Merrington to sleeve in a pair the same length as the old and choke them "skeet in/skeet out". Thinking back, I wish I had asked him if he could sleeve in a pair of short chambered 10s. Anyway, I asked Kirk if steel would be ok and said "no problem". It has 2&3/4" chambers and I use 1oz #3 Black Clouds for jump shooting waterfowl from my canoe. It's advertised at 1500 fps and I would prefer about 1250, but I don't shoot more than a couple of boxes a year.

Pete Lester 08-14-2011 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Lien (Post 48388)
why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...

I don't want to shoot steel through a Parker, I hope never to do so. However I enjoy using them in high volume activities such as crow hunting and thousands of rounds a year on clay pigeons. Non-Toxic shot has been mandated for waterfowling for 20 years, no economical non-tox shot for doubles has come along suggesting it never will. I believe a total lead ban will happen in my lifetime. It will not come all at once, it will be incremental and it has already started. Just this year the non-toxic mandate was extended to shooting various species on a federal depredation permit. A local skeet range just went non-tox. I am keeping an open mind because some sad day I believe I will have no alternative other than steel shot if I want to use a Parker they way I have come to enjoy them. I hope a couple of people take a sturdy "beater" and shoot the hell out of it with steel shot and report what happens.

Mark Ouellette 08-14-2011 09:02 AM

Gentlemen,

Mandates requiring non-toxic shot are coming. Those requirements may take decades to enact but they are coming. Will our Parkers then be only personal museum pieces?

As wisely stated, if you do not want to risk your barrels do not shoot steel in a Parker. What if a Parker has no barrel constrictions (chokes) or a small constriction such as IC/.010"? Would there be a risk? Let's consider risk... If I really wanted to drive fast my car would reach 130MPH, or so I have read. This would be safe on a race track providing I would wear a helmet and could handle the car at that speed. I would not however drive at 130 MPH on the highway because I do not want to risk my life or endanger others not to mention going to jail… Now, did your wife or girlfriend ever tell you to “Slow Down!”? If so, she did not accept the risk that you had. Undertaking risks is a personal decision which everyone has to make. There is risk in shooting steel shot in a Parker because we have few data points to indicate that it may be a very low risk.

A significant fact from Tom Roster's Shooting Sportsman article stated that he patented a new wad design making steel shot safe for modern guns in 1987. When the market demands someone will develop a wad making it safe to shoot steel shot in vintage guns. Or, do wads capable or protecting old, tightly choked barrels from damage from steel shot presently exist?

After witnessing a full choke (later measured at .030” and 035”) Damascus Parker shoot factory steel shot #4's, and in hearing from well known member of the LC Smith association that he regularly shoots #4 Hevi Shot in his LC Long Range choked at .040", I became very curious. Their barrels did not split but would mine? I know from recovering 12 gauge Hevi Shot wads that each petal is about 1/10" or .100" thick. Hmmm, .100" is more than twice the constriction of the tightest of vintage SxS chokes! NOTE: At the time the subject Parker was firing steel shot the shooter mistakenly thought the gun has less than modified (<.020") chokes.

To date there has been NO statistically significant research conducted concerning shooting steel shot in vintage SxS’s. Why would there be? We all need buy a NEW $1500 autoloader with a camo coating to be able to bag a few Mallards! Allowing for marketing hype let's consider the evidence. What evidence, all we have is hearsay from most, and a few members who witnessed split or bulged barrels from early steel shot loads. Was the cause mud in the muzzles, or could it have been first generation steel shot, perhaps with pellets rusted together, trying to enter into tight chokes with far too thin wad petals? Do you remember when if we even picked up a Damascus barreled gun our fingers would fall off? Maybe the hype wasn't that bad but I believed it and passed up some great Damascus guns 10-20 years ago... Were Grandpa’s blown barrels caused by smokeless power or was it the spider nest in them? Did great-grandpa mistakenly load second generation smokeless power by the black powder volume method rather than by weight in grains? First generation smokeless power was “bulk” and a one for one volume replacement for black powder.


Now is the time to get the facts rather than continue to believe what we have been hearing for years!

Young's Modulus is the engineering principal stating that everything is a spring. Materials strain, i.e. stretch and regain their shape, all the time. Tall bridges move in the wind. So does my wooden house as it endures near tornado winds. Guess what, so do barrels as a shot/wad column moved down it. Slow motion video shows barrel expanding for the shot as does a snake swallowing an animal. ALL barrels strain, be they old composite such as Damascus or fluid steel barrels of low or high carbon content. What we do not have is empirical evidence for at what point they stress, i.e. are permanently deformed! Only research will provide us this data.

For an upcoming research project to be undertaken by a professional gunsmith and myself as time, test subjects, and funding permits, one hypothesis is that Damascus (or low carbon (old, all Parker barrels) fluid steel) barrels can be strained to pass steel shot using “X” thickness of wad which has the hardness of “Y”. Significant factors in this research will be wad thickness and hardness, shot size, barrel thickness and constriction (choke), pressure at the barrel constriction, amount of strain immediately before deformation, velocity, barrel thickness at every half-inch (and point of failure if any) and of course barrel materials. For Damascus barrels that last factor will be tough but we will be able to determine the type of Damascus. Another hypothesis shall be that good quality Damascus is strong as fluid steel, as demonstrated with one test article each, Damascus and fluid steel, by Sherman Bell in his FINDING OUT FOR MYSELF series printed in the Double Gun Journal.

Please note that this research will NOT consider that modern high velocity steel shot ammunition kicks the heck out of shooters and may very probably crack the a 100 year old stock! There are times even I will shoot an autoloader… I do however want to know what I can and cannot shoot in my Parkers. Note: Pressure and recoil are not the same nor are they mutually exclusive. Recoil is determined by the "ejecta" or total weight and velocity of everything to include the weight of the powder traveling down the barrel!

Will these tests be statistically significant? No. The reason is that a sample set of 50 identical test subjects and factors would be required. We would also have to test to the point of deformation/failure for each load/wad/shot size/pressure...

These tests will however provide empirical evidence toward this debate.

For now, please do not shoot steel in a gun you do not want to risk. As for me I’ll shoot Nice Shot and ITX in my Parkers and Elsie’s. I also will not take my best Parkers in my duck boat. Bad things happen to nice guns in duck boats.

Let your common sense and bank account guide you.

Respectfully,
Mark

Bill Murphy 08-14-2011 04:47 PM

I think that shooting 12 gauge shells in ten gauge bores would relieve a lot if not all of the distress at the choke. I have been using chamber inserts for years in many different combinations with good results. A full coverage, thick walled 12 gauge wad shot through a .775 to .800 bore should be harmless to any choke. This system should also lower PSI beyond the chamber.

Fred Preston 08-14-2011 05:47 PM

I have a #3 frame 10ga NH of pre 1900 vintage that had been rebuilt several years ago by the DelGrego shop. Along with restocking and refinishing, 32" fluid steel barrells were sleeved in and choked "full & full" with 3&1/2" chambers. I sprung for a 10 round box of 3&1/2" bismuth and decided there had to be a better way and bought a set of 3&1/2" 12ga Guagemates. I had collected a couple of 12ga Black Cloud wads I had shot out of my 12 and found that they would fit smoothly/closely through the chokes of the NH. I tested/patterned some 3" and 3&1/2" steel 12s through it and they were tight and on center at 40 yards. I have not used it enough yet to prove anything.

Mark Ouellette 08-14-2011 06:30 PM

Bill and Fred,

I had feared that shooting 12 gauge steel in a 10 bore might result in shot slipping through the wad petals and scoring the bores. The nominal bore difference from 12 to 10 is .046". I measured a 10 and 12 gauge wads and found them to be .750" and .705". The shot cup will clearly expand to fill the bore in their respective gauges but an expansion of .070" will require something like a liner... "Lightbulb turns on!" How about one or two layers of Mylar liners? The scoring problem should be mitigated.

I also measured wad petal thickness:

Rem SP-10: .025"
BPI VP-100 10ga: .035"
BPI Multi Metal 10ga: .035" which have a much harder wad petal.

Bill Murphy 08-14-2011 06:40 PM

Fred, who sleeved your barrels to fluid steel for you? Are you satisfied with the total amount of money you have in this gun? Can you post some pictures? I have a Lefever sleeved 3 1/2" chamber ten gauge that I would fire 12 gauge steel in.

Mark Ouellette 08-14-2011 06:50 PM

Although a small sample, when caught off guard and ammo-less (What didn't I remember from Marine Corps training, "I can never have too much ammo!") by an approaching flight of Buffies my Steel Shooting Parker friend handed me a half dozen of his steel shot shells. I used them with Gauge Mates in my Parker EH 10 with the only bad results being suffered by the ducks. Parker chokes and bores are still A'okay!

PS: A 10 gauge has 9% more area than does a 12 gauge. The pressure drop should correspond. Accurate pressure testing of course should be done before trying this at home... :)

Fred Preston 08-14-2011 09:04 PM

Bill, The NH is cosmeticly Remington/DelGrego and the dimensions are up to date. I asked Lawrence if he thought the gun came out of their shop, and he was certain that it did. I didn't ask specifically about the barrel work, but I believe that at the time this work was done that the DelGregos had the sleeving done by Lefever. Pic to follow, can't get one on here.

Fred Preston 08-14-2011 09:21 PM

10ga NH
 
1 Attachment(s)
Bill, Here's a pic from the file. I'll have to take some more for a better presentation.

Heck, I always pay too much.

Theodore LeDurt 08-14-2011 10:33 PM

Sorry for getting to the "dance" late.

First off, I have shot well over a 1000 rounds of 3" steel (2#,3#,4#) shot out of an Auto 5 Belgium gun with modified choke with no problems. Also I have fired 100's of steel rounds from a 10ga Berreta Siverhawk. 12ga Grulla, and a 12ga James.

After hours of conversation with Tom Armbrust and Worth Mathewson, all my chokes were opened to .017 left and .009 right barrel. Twelve gauge loads were kept under 1400fps, only 1 1/8oz, #2 shot or larger, in 2 3/4", except the 1oz load of #3 Black Cloud, which I believe to be 1500 fps. I realize this is antidotal, but there was no barrel damage from any of my guns. This conversation is only referencing steel barrels, not damascus.

I have never shot steel from my Parker as I want to retain the full and full in the 32" barrels (Buckingham wannabe) and am now loading ITX for this gun, but would not hesitate to shoot steel if the chokes were opened.

Mark Ouellette 08-15-2011 06:41 AM

Theodore,

Welcome aboard! Your information shall serve as a data point in the overall assessment. Since your experiance was not from a "controlled test" we shall enter it as Shooter Experiance.

Could you measure your Browning's modified choke?
Also, what brand/model steel shot did you predominately shoot?

Bruce Day 08-15-2011 08:10 AM

xxxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destry L. Hoffard (Post 48151)
What all this really means is that anybody with good sense won't shoot steel in a vintage shotgun unless it's just some old beater piece of crap they don't care about. Notice I said, anybody with good sense......

Destry


Bruce Day 08-15-2011 08:10 AM

xxxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Suponski (Post 48152)
Yup, We can move on now.


Bruce Day 08-15-2011 08:28 AM

Fellows, thanks for considering these important issues.

I got several emails from forum members about their gun clubs moving to non tox ammo and how that seemed to be a disturbing and coming trend. If we don't look at these issues, vintage gun collectors are going to find their use of these guns increasingly restricted.

Generally , we are the most well thought out vintage gun collectors organization, in my opinion. If we don't investigate or push for investigation of shooting steel in vintage guns, who will? Not the gun makers , they want to sell you a new gun, just like they did when fluid steel barrels surpassed damascus barrels. We have some good members, maybe the best in the gun collecting community, and maybe we lead the way in serious investigation for the Browning, Winchester, Fox, Smith, etc folks.

The chamber pressure and recoil issues can be addressed in steel loads just like in lead loads.....don't shoot the heavy stuff that whacks you and the gun.

The unresolved and important issues are constriction and barrel streaking. The Roster shot cup is supposed to prevent streaking and bore erosion, so tests demonstrating that in mild steel vintage barrels are needed. The constriction issue may be resolved now, and there may be research already done that we could retrieve. Maybe what we need is a new series in the DGJ dealing with steel in vintage guns. Remember when the shooting damascus article series came out? Before that there were those who had all sorts of misinformation and rumors about black powder, smokeless powder and damascus.

So all we have so far is anecdotal information, some people have courageously admitted good experiences, maybe there is something there, but certainly more investigation needs to be done. I'm thankful that Mark is interested and wants to look more into it. If we can develop an acceptable and doable testing protocol, that would be best.

We have a person with sleeved barrels and his barrel man told him that steel was acceptable in those barrels. Let's think about that. What makes the sleeved barrels more resistant to steel shot than original Parker fluid steel barrels ? Both are mild steel tubes. Parker then later Rem used the best steel available. Was the best steel available then inferior to the steel tubes used for sleeving today?

So, fellows, thanks for keeping an open mind, as we set out to do in post #1.

Bill Murphy 08-15-2011 09:04 AM

Fred, if your gun came through Del Grego's shop a while back, the sleeving was probably done at Lefever. My sleeved Magnum ten DH actually has Lefever markings on the rib, but it is the only one I have ever seen marked like that. My gun has no other marking that would indicate where the sleeving was done. The rib inscription was changed to "Lefever Steel" from Damascus Steel. The new inscription looks like it was done at the Parker factory, very professional.

Mark Ouellette 08-15-2011 09:31 AM

Gentlemen,

As Bill commeted, research is needed. It is our intention to conduct controlled tests to investigate how much pressure and strain older barrels can endure without deformation or failure. The test protocols will be very important.

What is most important in conducting research in this emotionally charged subject is to leave those emotions behind and gather data for analysis. These tests will however take time. If we have agreed upon protocols we could establish multiple test teams are different locations. This would provide more data and potentially faster results.

We very seriously intend to publish our results.

If anyone desires to contribute their time, knowledge, or resources please contact me via PM.

Respectfully,
Mark

Fred Preston 08-15-2011 10:42 AM

Bill, Like yours, mine has had "DAMASCUS" replaced, mine being with "PARKER" and it can't be distinguished from the other rib lettering.


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