I think they were around even back when we were young too- it was a temporary condition -


if you had the base interest established - guns and hunting eventually re-floated :rotf:

But they have always required a serious divergence of discretionary funds :eek:






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which we would have blown on fast cars anyway :whistle:

I'm late to the party but I think it is a two fold condition. One has to do with the fact that there are way more people out there who have never heard of Parker Bros. then there are who know what they are. I know it's hard to believe but go ask 10 random people if they know what a Parker is. The other condition is the price and value of these guns is driven by collectors, not hunters or shooters. The collector group is relatively small right now and they know about most every high grade Parker out there. When the economy improves more will enter the collector group and prices will go up again. Of course this is just MHO and not based on scientific research.

Actually there is a 3rd condition. Internet sales. Never before have so many Parker's been available to many for purchase. Supply has outstripped demand.

Not to discourage anyone from doing just that, I'd suggest that if you do it, you write it from the technical side, or from some perspective other than trying to tell people how cool it is to shoot old shotguns. I had the editor of a prominent shooting magazine tell me that space was "too precious for human interest pieces", and that they aren't what anybody wants to read anyway. And as the publisher of a mag I used to work for told me, "magazines don't make money selling subscriptions, they make it selling advertising."

Many of the serious collectors I know did not start collecting when Parkers were "pennies on the dollar". They started when guys like Kevin McCormack and I showed them our guns, let them shoot our guns, and gave them a way to get into one of these guns. It tickles me when someone asks me questions about my guns. The disappointment sets in when they don't ask. I have taken a really hot single trap to my club twice lately for a show and tell and a shoot and tell. Both trips to the club, different members asked me what "such a gun" would be used for. They had no idea what a single barrel trap gun was or what it was used for. These were experienced shooters past 50 years old. We need to tackle these guys and educate them, and then locate their checkbooks.

While I am enthusiastic about the promotion of the double gun sports, I am unabashedly pessimistic about the future of paper-&-ink magazines, newspapers, and other such media.

The future of communication is electronic/internet. If you're not there, you don't exist to the young audience. Or any audience 10 years from now. Like it or not. This is why the future of our sport/interest must make the transition to new mediums.

Video production and YouTube is the path. Along with vertical cable TV channels dedicated to outdoor sports or country topics. If "Top Shot" can survive on cable, WHERE is the segment that features sporting clays with double guns? Answer: It is yet to be made.

Shooting industry manufacturers have SAAMI to give them a collective voice. We need something similar...

But, if you insist on some paper media, THIS is a good option for image awareness:

http://gardenandgun.com

I think one way to slow down the declining prices would be for dealers/owners to establish a base line. What I mean is this, lets set a price on an average condition Trojan 12 gauge at 700-800 dollars...a VH at 1000-1200...a PH at 1400-1500...a GH at 1700-1800, etc. etc. So, lets say you are a dealer, and you see one of the above guns selling for less than the amounts shown. If you buy it, you remove it from the market and can set your own selling price. I understand that you may not sell it quickly, but if you remain firm a base price will be established. If a private seller needs a quick sale, and offers their guns for less, buy it and list it at the base price. If there are 471 Parker's on gunsinternational, and say 300 of them are in the lower grades, and we buy them, now there are only 171 left and they will probably be high grade, or high condition, guns that are for advanced collectors that may have the disposable for such guns. I think what I am trying to say here is that we, as collectors/shooters have to establish a guns value and not leave it to those folks that will only buy a gun if they think it's cheaper than it should be. I've never seen a 60,000 Range Rover sell for 30,000 just because there are alot of them out there.

Yes, but look at what IS on there: Hunters with bows that are really nothing more than guns with sights, triggers, et al, whooping and hollering when they kill a big buck that they've been watching for months with trail cameras or maybe even baiting. Then they sit there and wait until he comes by, shoot him, and brag about their "hunting" exploits. And it seems that's what most folks want to see. I know: I'm a member of a family full of 'em.

Hmmm...now that you mention it, I do remember my amount of hunting and fishing declined dramatically when I realized you could attract more chicks with a guitar than with a shotgun :).

The Blue Book of Gun Values pretty much "establishes" baseline prices on the doubles we collect and shoot, but it seems that that publication has a pretty hard time keeping in step with what is actually happening in the used gun market scene.
The other problem is that a seller (not necessarily a dealer) is too eager to lower his price for the sake of making the sale. There are 'predators' who watch these offerings and pounce when the price drops to something below wholesale. It's a vicious cycle - it's like a reverse auction and the seller is rarely totally pleased with the outcome.

Regarding the $60,000 Range Rover selling for half of its actual value... I hope we never see this happen with classic American doubles, though I am beginning to see evidence of it recently... or is it just a "market adjustment"...?






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The Blue Book take 11/2 years to gather data and go to press.The day it is printed the prices are obsolete.They have great research articles and a lot of important information,but the prices are worthless.Especially on older guns.What most people do not realize is there are no fixed prices on any high grade guns.The price is dependent on condition,rarity,and geographical location.

And the sell price is dependent on how many actual buyers are prepared to pay for it.





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You got it.The best thing to do is for the younger guys to take advantage of the great buys coming their way and us older guys enjoy the guns we have and be able to say when you get to the end "I had some great guns,great dogs,great friends, and killed a hell of a lot of birds"

I was just discussing this with someone less than an hour ago, funny to see there is a thread started here...

I am a millennial. I'm 27 and I dont know anyone else my age who is into these guns. I have one very dear friend who is a fellow grouser who hunts exclusively with a D grade 16 and a repro 28 but he is 10 years older than me. We have both discussed whether we should stop buying parkers because they may drop sharply in value as we get older and maybe we would be able to pick up really nice guns for less money down the road.

I dont know what to tell you guys, I'm embarressed to say that the majority of my generation isnt at all interested in hunting. Also most of my friends look at me like a grew a second head when they find out what I have paid for relatively inexpensive Parkers.. And most of my friends are young professionals who could probably afford Parker guns if they were interested in them..

A good friend of mine who is a well paid attorney hunts exclusively with a franchi over and under. Its quite sad that I have to look over at that when I am out in the field with him..

Just 2 cents from a millennial.

I am curious, what were the prices on Parker's after WWII and prior to Johnson's first book on them? Did his book help to create a mystique and improve the market for them? What were the prices and market for composite barrel double guns prior to Sherman Bell's articles in the Double Gun Journal? Same thing for 2 7/8" 10ga guns prior to his articles vs. today. What role and effect do outdoor writers have in this situation?

People don't get their information from books and magazines much anymore. Even web pages like this are becoming passe. Social media is how younger people connect and get information, how do classic double guns and hunting fit into that world?

Fear not John, tha vast majority of our generation are not interested in hunting either. Though some of us grew up hunting on our own land, most never had that opportunity... and far, far fewer today are able to enjoy it. 'Urban sprawl' is as much the culprit, coupled with the ignorance of the folks who move from urban areas to the former farmlands which ,now, are the 'No Discharge' suburbs.





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My name is Dean. And I'm a Parkaholic.
You tube is my television now and I'm depressed by the lack of Parker Gun content found there. Larry Potterfield has a fantastic series where he completely rebuilds an old lifter. Aside from that there's little else. I'm not saying that more content on YouTube would be a panacea, but it would be a start. Imagine watching Brian Dudley at work, or seeing some nice collector pieces go afield. There's no reason our members, or even the PGCA couldn't have a channel on YouTube spreading the good word.

Has the PGCA ever considered a group page on Facebook to attract new members? The American Custom Gunmakers Guild and other similar organizations have group pages. There are options to create both private and secret groups. There are younger hunters like http://www.northwoodsr.com and http://uplandlowlife.com who share their passion for hunting and double guns on Facebook, Twitter, etc you just have to be on these sites or you may never hear about them. They also work with RGS and Orvis to promote hunting.

Ok, I was at the vegas show. Tried to buy a project b grade hammer gun from a large dealer in the upper midwest. Gun was all there but needed to be unpolished and tightend and a good cleaning. I offered 11% less than asking and didn't even get a counter offer to where we would have ended up as a good deal. Nope it was take it or leave it. Now I've dealt with the young man's Dad and God rest his soul things would have been different. I was able to acquire a nice 16ga and a 12 ga CH project for more than the B grade. I left the show happy but slightly confused on the market.

As to girls joining the Parker afflicted, count my daughter as one. I plan to infect her boyfriend also. We control this aspect. Now that the political pendulum is swinging back talk up your affliction to your coworkers. Take them to the range if interested. If we each got two in our lifetime to become Parker fans then we double our numbers.

Rich, can I apply to be your adopted son? :rotf:

Consider this thirty-eight-year-old's opinion: Some shotguns are collected because they are "fine," while others are collected because they are "nostalgic." In my opinion, firearm nostalgia is dead. The next generation does not have memories of running home from school to grab the old gun and hit the woods. They did not grow up with guns. Sell your Model 12 while you still can. (I, personally, have no interest whatsoever in an old pump. My first duck gun was a cheap pump and I hated it!) Fine guns, however, will always be in demand, but the market for fine guns is small. Is your Parker "fine," or just "nostalgic"?

Victor, would you kindly tell us your definition of "fine"?

Descriptive 'words' are subjective.





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As with Dean, I would also need to hear your definition of "fine".
In my opinion the Model 12 was one of the "finest" pump guns ever produced. Are you talking about condition or a certain type of firearm?

Dean:

Of course everyone is entitled to their subjective opinion as to what is a "fine" gun. However, there are (objective?) factors to be considered, such as brand (e.g., Parker), quality/condition, and perhaps rarity. A "wow" gun, not an everyday shooter. A high condition, high grade gun. A pristine VHE (like the one JLoew just sold me) versus a beat-up DHE.

-Victor

Frank:

Why does a pump gun appeal to you? My guess is nostalgia. Perhaps the Model 12 was the greatest (finest?) pump gun ever made. (I have no opinion on that issue.) It's still a pump gun. It's missing a barrel. It requires the user to pump his support arm rather than simply move his trigger finger to the subjacent trigger (or just pull the same trigger a second time). Nothing wrong with being nostalgic, so please take no offense to my remarks. I was just offering up my speculation as to future demand.

-Victor

Victor,

To me a fine gun is one that has a high degree of design, hand built quality and craftsmanship. It has nothing to do with action type. Any Parker is nostalgic. Guns with provenance command a premium. I just needed your clarification.

Hi, First post and first day on the form as a member. I want to put a few of you to ease by saying that I'm 28 years of age and an avid SxS collector with a special passion for Parkers. Im sure that I'm a small section of my age range to have this passion but fortunately my generation has become a large part of the firearm society and with the hope of less gun bans and regulations maybe it will give them a chance to appreciate the finer firearms.
Thanks for the years of good reading on this form!

Welcome Eric! Glad to have you on board

Thanks for the welcome.

Guys- for what it's worth, I see Parker guns every single day of the week in my work with Julias. The biggest difference I see right now is at the very top of the market. Markets are lead by leading buyers - whether it's real estate, cars, guns, etc. For a while we had a steady stream of very very wealthy people that would reach quite deep to own a great Parker. We still have them but not in quite as great a quantity of NEW deep pocketed buyers as we had 7-10 years ago. If the top end of the market is a tad softer so is the rest of the market.

The Parker market is alive and well- just last week a 38 year old PGCA member sold to another 38 yr old PGCA member a great VHE at a fair price. The difference in today's market and the market of several years back is that to sell anything it has to be fairly priced/within reason. If it's in the stratosphere your leading buyers won't stretch as far today as they once did, but I feel those days can return if we continue to create interest in these guns and have folks join the PGCA. In my opinion this current market is a great buying opportunity for smart and discerning aficionados!!!

Do any of my fellow afflicted follow the car auctions? I jsut watched the Scottsdale auction and most of the cars were from the 60's and prices have retreated about 35% since the Zero was elected. In 2009 restored number matching big block '60 era Chevelles were in 90 to 100K neighborhood. Now same cars stretch to reach 65k. Big block Corvettes were 150k now bring about 100K. Early classics from the twenties have retreated even more. Cars from the 50's are also falling. But classic Ferrari's have shot way up. Any Ferrari less tahn 30 years old is treated like a used car. I saw a low mileage 360 Cabriolet go for 75K. The announcers said it was well bought.

What does this have to do with us? Well Parker prices are about the same or a little lower over the last 5 years. Our hobby has held up a little better than other classic pass times. I foresee a steady but small slope rise in prices in the next few years as Baby boomers finally retire to other pursuits.

The Gen x are just getting into their accumulation years with the Y's behind them. I see the big jump happening with the Millennial's as they are more likely to discern and appreciate real things versus the fad toy of the minute that they have been raised on their entire lives. This sort of explains the Steam Punk genre. Real iron, wood and leather you can grasp with your hands. The future is ok and does anyone want to buy some beenie baby's?

Your point on classic cars - especially muscle cars - is well noted. And in my humble opinion, they will never bounce back. Why? Because later generations have NO personal and nostalgic connection to these commodities.

They don't dislike them. They simply don't have any affection or romance connected to them. Thus, they aren't going to pay Big Money for something that Dad went street racing in.

The same ethos exists with SxS double guns. Younger generations do not have a personal connection to them. If anything, it's the O/U that they are familiar with. They have to be "convinced" through some means that an SxS has values. Even then, they are unlikely to pay big money for one. Especially one made by a company thats been defunct for over a century.

On the brighter side, I'm still having fun with my own doubles. For what that's worth.

Yes Dean, but if you started 16 years ago, you weren't the young crowd which I was explaining not having the discretionary income to buy these guns at the moment. You were at a later stage in life and felt like you had some money.

Again, my comments were in regards to why so few people in their 20s or 30s are into parkers. Guys in their 40s or 50s or 60s are a different question.

Dean,

I could be wrong, I am currently scratching an itch for pre 64 model 70s and I will admit prices are a little more affordable currently. The really high end ones are still a little over priced in my opinion, but the actual shooter condition guns are being more realistic.

It's all about "supply & demand" today.

The "high end" ones are in pretty short supply (outside of collections) and consequently command a much higher price.... Why? Because people (few that they are) will pay that higher price. A well-used Damascus GH 12 gauge, on the other hand, isn't and consequently, doesn't.






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Dean is correct in his last post. But personally I am enjoying the period of soft prices. As they say nothing solves low prices like low prices, it always balances out the supply and demand.

I just got back from my first trip to the wichita falls gun show....Not a lot of collectibles period. 3 colt SAAs-2 1st gen, 3 pre 64 model 70s but one had the checkering completely gone, a savage fox and some British maker side x side hammer gun I didn't recognize, a nitro coach gun, and a bunch of 1903 springfields, mausers, and mossin nagants. Other than that a lot of Remmys, savages, Rugers, kimbers, and black guns..and knives, and parts, and such. Wasn't a bad show, I just had expected a little more collectible type guns in this part of the world. I didn't have anything to spend anyway.