So Carl, can we presume that you and the other organizers would expect all entrants to do the 'honorable thing' insofar as how they each represent their own guns in competition?

I was a competitive Skeet shooter for many years and lived through the transition from 4 guns to four-barrel sets to tube inserts. The game attracted many more competitors in the small gauge events when there was the transition to tubes, because of the cost factor. One could, for about $1,000, compete in the 20-28-.410 events for a fraction of the cost required to buy three additional guns. Would the same happen, with side x sides? I personally doubt it because of the average age of competitors (old fogies, including myself) and the compulsive acquisitive nature, as regards shotguns, of the players.
I'm not in favor of the idea of tubes. But does that mean that the idea has no merit? I don't know, but if the number of small bore competitors were to double, would there be merit in the idea?

Dean, I can speak only for myself in this matter and in answer to your question, I believe that all decisions should be based on thoughtfull consideration and with honorable intentions.

Honorable thing? I'm not sure I understand your point Dean. The Challenge Cup does distinguish between composite and fluid steels for the Gaddy Trophy. Is there something else we have to declare now?

Hi Ed, "Honorable thing" insofar as how each competitor represents his gun in meeting prescribed qualifications for entry.

The Oscar Gaddy event never entered my mind because it would be plain to see if a competitor's gun had Damascus barrels... or not. Fluid steel barrels would be an automatic disqualifier.... just as gauge mates or tubes are in other classic shooting events.

Carl, as I mentioned earlier, the Challenge, being a heads up competition, is really not a place where too much in the way of restrictions should be considered. I think we are all happy with the way it is now. In fact, I don't see much harm or advantage if a guy shoots a gun tubed to 20 gauge, composite or not. By the way, thanks for your work on the Challenge and we hope you continue.

John Truitt, you asked for opinions and you got mine, no different, by the way, than what others have posted. I'm sorry you are offended just by my posts, but they are not meant to be offensive. My apologies if you saw them as something they are not.

Bill Murphy, thank you. All is well. Enough said.

Would like some clarification if possable. Challenge Cup rules specifically allow sub gauge tube sets if the barrels are Damascus I don't see any equipment rules published for the Southern SxS itself.

Of course any organizer can rule however he likes on equipment. Challenge cup is run by the clubs Southern itself is not. Is there a set of equipment rules available for the Deep River and Backwoods events ?


William Davis

Yes Mr. Davis - there are rules and they will appear in the Fall 2014 Issue of Parker Pages and I'm certain those in charge will post them here quite soon.

Regards, Dean

William
Gage mates, etc ,are not allowed in the Fall Southern SXS. The gun shot must be in the Gage Parker Bros manufactured it in. Damascus guns are deemed safe if used with low pressure loads.
David

I have a 20G Trojan just as it left the factory and own and shoot Damascus Parkers. Am looking at a 12 DH Damascus that may have barrels past saving. If so the options are Donor old barrel same gauge, Sleeve same gauge, or some sort of insert that would have to be in a smaller gauge

Wanted to know what events it could be used in with the various options. Looks like Challenge but not the Southern with anything but as shipped from the factory. If so considering the cost of the first two, it’s not worth trying to save the gun. Not a problem just wanted to know before buying.

William

If you bring it back in the same gage you can shoot it in all the events. If you sleeve it to a smaller gage, you can shoot it but in handicapped events you do not receive the bonus birds. I do not know if you can shoot it in sub gage events but if the rules do not preclude that, it is strongly frowned upon.
David

Tube sets?
 

Hell NO, no tube sets.

Go to any sporting clays event and try to shoot your 410 or 28 SxS against the guy with the 11 pound target gun with a set of full length tubes and see who wins that one. I think it should be about the gun, not the score that you can achieve with your best 12 gauge gun. Although I do understand it could be an affordability issue for some and an inconvenience for others, like myself, to ship several guns across the country to compete in an event, but my god can't we be true to something in the country.:nono:

My opinion is nothing that was not around when the Parkers were made.

Larry
I agree completely. I can hold my own with an original small gage, light and whippy, Parker but not against some one with a sleeved 10 lb 2 frame 12ga. Those guns are not allowed at the Fall SXS at Backwoods and that is one of the many reasons I love that event. It also is 20 min from my home:bigbye:
David

I shot the (clay) pigeon ring at Lapeer Michigan last Sunday with my 14 & 1/2 pound DH 8 gauge. To my knowledge had the high score of 22 of 25 targets. A big gun potentially with generate a big score. That's why long ago pigeon and trap guns were limited to a maximum weight of 8 pounds.

Mark

please explain why a gun that weighs more will do better on targets..charlie

Mills,

research auxillary rifle tube inserts/ barrel inserts made by Remington.

Tube sets are NOT new technology. The rifle sets have been around since 1870's or so.

I think it was the Auxillary Rifle barrel company or a name close to that.

There is also some talk of this topic on this forum in the past along with some photos.

Charlie,

A force in motion tends to stay in motion and a force at rest tends to stay at rest.

Simply stated, heavier guns swing better once moving and also dampen recoil.

Mark

David,

I was not aware there was a rule on gun weight restriction at the Fall Side by Side.

Please post us a copy of the rules that Rick is enforcing.

I have never fired a SxS in competition so I have no actual dog in this hunt and the majority of you will own more parkers or whatever in your life then I will, but I will side with the no tubes, no gage mates, etc.

It is a question of playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Shooting with gauge mates etc in competition is like playing a round of golf with unlimited mulligans...its fun to goof off, but competitively whats the point.

Ok here's my question, if it is ok to modify a Parker to shoot in the Fall or Spring shoot, why is it Repro's are not allowed, they are much closer to the originals then what you guys are talking about....:whistle: Just asking...

Eric - I didn't know that Parker Repros were not allowed in the Fall and Spring shoots.

Bill, I understand your sentiment, but a mulligan is a "Do Over". You don't get a second chance at a target, just because you use gauge mates. Probably a better golf analogy would be using a "wood' made of space age metal. Oh!, that's right, they do that now.
But they have outlawed the "belly" putter; which is basically what the current side by side rules do as a way of keeping new technology from giving an unfair advantage and maintaining the history of the game inact.

Repros are allowed in the Spring and Fall Shoots. Just not to be used in the Parker/ Smith Challenge Event. But yes they can be used in all of the other competitions.
I have been told Parker Repros were not allowed in the Challenge because of Smith not having an equivalent repro. Something to do with some new guns having the smith name/ etc.

There is very detailed info on "legal"/ acceptable guns for the Challenge Event and for the general Fall and Spring shoots.

Everyone is in agreement that tube sets/ removable chamber devices and the like are not acceptable.

I would suggest everyone read the rules so there is no confusion. I think they are still up on a sticky. If not it can be searched. I had a very good discussion with Bill Kempler today. He suggested anyone with questions on equipment to give him a call to clear up any misunderstandings.
I have a call in to Rick Hemingway. I hope to hear from him on Thursday.

Did a search on "Southern Rules" lots on the Challenge cup, well documented. Nothing on the Southern itself.

Like to see something in print.

William

Mr Davis,

I agree with you I cant find the general rules for the Fall or Spring Southern competitions.

I will keep looking and post a link if I can find them. They used to be readily accessible.

Sub-Gauge tubes
 

In my humble opinion; tubes should not be allowed. The former opinions of fellows here are correct in that for targets, a heavier gun which would have never been hunted with, then fitted with tubes would be an unfair advantage versus someone who was shooting an original gun. I recognize that some live pigeon and target guns were very heavy, and those of us who shoot trap & skeet realize that a gun way to heavy to carry in the field works great for clay targets.
I have a 16 gauge Sauer & Sohn hammer gun from about 1865-1870 era with Leupold Bernard Damascus barrels, which, while beautiful on the outside; are too pitted to shoot. I will put 28 Gauge Briley tubes in it. However, I would not consider it original, nor would I expect to shoot it in a competition. (Oh, dear Lord, to be so good as to make that a problem.)
I have a 32" 12 gauge #2 framed Parker. I shoot it pretty well, but I would not want to be allowed to shoot it in a Vintager match with .410 tubes.

This thread has been a wonderful example of the quality conversations, and the richness of opinions the Parker community has to offer.

I just got off the phone with Rick Hemingway from Backwoods Quail Club.

There is no restriction on gun weight for any gun or gauge. Period!!

Both Rick and Bill agree that tube sets are not allowed for the sub gauge events. However Rick did say that it is permitted to use a chamber reducer/ or tube set in the big bore events. For example: a ten gauge gun with 12 ga tube set or chamber reducer but must be shot in the ten gauge event. Or a 12 ga gun with 16 ga tube set must be shot in the 12 ga event. (12/20 etc, etc)

Repros are allowed for the competitions ,all of them, except for the Challenge Events (Parker vs LC Smith)

John
Thank you !
We now have the word
David

What I am saying is that you can use a modified (sometimes highly) Parker in the Parker/Smith challenge but not a Repro, why ? Sounds to me a simple question....:whistle:

John,
Thanks!
Mike

Opening Day,

Ask the board or whom ever it was involved with making the rules.

New Guy here....Why not start with an opinion? Always a sure way to win friends. :)

Why would anyone want to do anything that might provide an unfair advantage... i.e. "cheat"? Just to get a damn trophy? C'mon !!!!!
Should a vintage auto racer be allowed to install a modern engine and modern brakes and compete against those with 50+ year old technology?
WE should do this for the fun and comraderie of the competition. I prefer bragging rights over trophies. Hopefully no one feels the need to win a trophy to have a good time.

Hey, don't ask if you don't wanna know....

I hope to make the Southern SxS for the first time this year.

Tom
Atlanta
(Parker AND LC Smith owner)

Mr McCoy,

I encourage you to come to the Southern. Hek come to both the Fall and the Spring. You will have a grand time.

You are correct and will find after spending time with these folks that we are all very enthusiastic and passionate about our Parkers/Smiths/ etc.

I know many of the guys who have commented on this thread and I can say that from my experience not a single one of them would knowingly or blatantly cheat or do something against the rules.

Please come joins us. Please look for me. You are welcome to check out my guns and give them a go if you would like.

Hey John,
I am working on making it. I would say the wife is about 75% convinced... of course that included a bribe with a spa somewhere. The biggest hurdle will be that 4 letter word... WORK.
I'm sure its a great group, and will be a lot of fun. I couldn't resist throwing my opinion in, and it certainly seems to be the consensus. As you said, I doubt anyone would knowingly cheat, rather, they may not be aware of the "etiquette" of the competition.
I will definitely try to locate you, shake your hand, and buy the first cold beer that night.

Thanks for the Southern Hospitality!!

Tom
Atlanta
Deo Vindice

Ok I am asking to whom ever it may concern: Why ?:rolleyes:

So you can use a gauge reducing device to take a 12 to a 16 for example but must shoot the gun in the 12ga event which is fine but I would ask why? If you want a 16ga load say 7/8th's just reduce your 12ga load accordingly. Simpler and less expensive than buying gauge mates or sub gauge tubes.

COB,

you are correct about reducing load, but what about the guy who has a very pitted barrel and for his own peace of mind wants to use a tube set to allow him to shoot the gun.
There are many reasons. Some we will understand some we may not.

These events should not be about trying to exclude shooters but about encouraging all who want to participate and getting them out there.

I recommend concerns /questions be directed to the shoot directors.

Eric, Rich
Because those are the rules of the game. Y'all don't participate anyways so...
David