Sisley created a little confusion when he used the same production total, 33, for two entirely different guns. In my opinion, the 33 DHEs were probably one barrel set .410s on the 00 frame. The second 33, again in my opinion, refers to the "finished" BHE 0000 frame guns. I think I made an error in my comments on page 3 of this thread. I think Sisley was probably correct in stating that 133 0000 frame .410s were started.

It's reported in The Parker Story that the distance between the firing pins of a 000-frame Parker is 13/16", it has also been stated (but not verified) that a 0000-frame Parker Reproduction has this same dimension between the firing pins. Well, on the net today I just happened to come across a couple of pics of a 000-frame Parker and it got me to wondering whether or not they are the same? Take a look at these pics and compare the little nuances and differences . . . the 1st is a 000-frame Parker, the 2nd is a 0000-frame Repro, the 3rd is the Parker again and the 4th and 5th pics are the Repro again. There is a step down of the barrels on a 000-frame Parker which the 0000-frame Repros do not have and it appears that the Repro barrels are more internal to the frame than the 000-frame Parker. What conclusions can we draw from this? It could be: A) The pin separation is not the same, or: B) the frame dimensions across the watertable at the breech and hinge of the Repro are greater than the 000-frame Parker. What do you think? Anyone have 0000-frame Repro that they can measure to verify?

What many collectors and researchers don't realize is the we are not comparing the 000 frame original Parker .410 frame with the 0000 frame Repro frame. The elephant in the room is the OO frame Repro frame, which is the frame that most .410 Repro Parkers are built on. The 0000 frame Repro is nothing like any other Parker frame, even though frames marked 0000 are incorrectly identified as 0000 frames, they are not, they are Repro 00 frames made for the 28 gauge Repro. The Parker Repro was never made on a 000 frame, no, never. The .410 Repro was made either on the 00 frame or the rare and unusual 0000 frame.

I think the thing we can take from this is that comparing a 000-Frame Parker .410 to a 0000-Frame Repro is exactly like comparing apples to oranges. Bill said it best though.






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It's finally time to measure the firing pin separation on the real 0000 frame Repros. I have done it but another measurement would be nice to confirm.

I think trying to compare the reproduction to an original Parker is akin to comparing a CSM Fox to a Philly gun. The repro and the CSM guns are both excellent choices BUT there not the original manufacture and therefore not the same.

Can anybody state w/fair certainty that the firing pins themselves are exactly the same diameter on all Repro's?

If so, the answer is found by scaling the photo..

It's finally time to measure the firing pin separation on the real 0000 frame Repros. I have done it but another measurement would be nice. As I recall, it is the same as the original Parker Brothers 000 frame. I may be mistaken.

Are you sure about that?

"Finally, the factory started 133 .410s on the tiny 4/0 frame. They completed 33 of these, and that's when production ceased. . . . As for the 100 partially made .410s on the 4/0 frame, Jack Skeuse continues to build as time and experienced gunsmiths permit."--Nick Sisley, Shotgun Sports Magazine Jan/Feb 1996

At the time, Sisley's statement was correct. There were more than a few real 0000 frames unfinished at the end of production. Many of these frames were engraved on the aftermarket, some under the direction of the Skeuse family. Although the 000 frame Parkers and the real 0000 frame Repros had similar pin separation (as I recall), the frame treatment and maybe some exterior dimensions were different.

I'm kind of slow, please help me come through the fog and see the light. From the Parker Repro Production Chart on the Parker Grades page it says that:

* 16 A-1 Special 28/.410 sets were produced--these obviously were built on a 00-frame.

* 9 BHE .410 guns were produced--no frame size is listed, but it's assumed these were on a 0000-frame, right? If we assume Sisley's reporting is accurate, we know at least 33 0000-frame guns were completed, but we don't know what grade they were finished out in. From the pic I posted above we see that it is a 0000-frame BHE and it is #52, so it can be assumed there are at least 52 BHEs, or more, on a 0000-frame out there--and there were 100 more 0000-frame guns at the time at the time of Sisley's article that were started. We do know that Gournet engraved some of those as A-1 Specials, but we don't know how many he finished or if he, or other gunsmiths, finished them and in what grades.

* 33 DHE .410 guns were produced, but we don't know what frame size they were built on--were they on a 00 or 0000-frame?? Where did this quantity of 33 come from?

Do we know definitively how many Repro .410s were built on a 00-frame?

Do we know the number of DHE and BHE 28/.410 00-frame sets that were built?

Maybe there's no answers to the above, but if you're like me and enjoy the hobby, you'd like to know. At the very least, it appears the production chart could use a little help, it's our collective knowledge that can provide that help.

There are several things we have learned and found concerning Parker Reproductions in this thread:

1. We now know and have seen pics of at least two 0000-frame BHE .410s produced that have DHE-style engraving. I believe everyone would have to agree that this is rare, odd and unusual -- even in the world of Parkers.

2. The Parker Reproduction Production Chart on the Parker Grades page of this website states that there were 9 BHE .410s built. In this thread we have seen pics of B .410-0045 and B .410-0052 (both of these happen to be built on 4/0 frames). It appears from these serial numbers that there were at least 52 built -- and there's probably more out there. The Sisley article corroborates these findings.

3. There are no BHE .410/28 sets mentioned in the Production Chart. We now know there is one and only one BHE .410/28 set ever produced. This is documented by a copy of a type-written letter by J.T. Skeuse, the President of Parker Reproductions to Leslie Blumberg.

Given the above, I respectfully request that the Production Chart be revised and updated to show these Parker Repros found. And going forward, as additional information comes to light, further revisions be made at that time.

At least 52?
Then there is a chance I can buy one!!!! They are plentiful!

George, most of them have been through the Gournet shop. Most of those are maximum effort type guns. I won't be buying one of them.

Bill, what is it about them having been engraved by Gournet makes them unattractive to you?





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$35000 to $75000, maybe way more. I have watched Geoffroy work on several and they are worth every penny anyone would pay. I am a little short on cash and trading material.

Yep, at least 52 . . . and likely more. Serial numbers tell the tale, Parker Repros were serialized per grade and gauge starting at No. 1 (with the possible exception of the early prototype DHE 20-ga., specialty NSSF and Buffalo Bill Museum guns). In the case of BHE .410s, we have a pic of B .410-0052 -- making it the 52nd B-Grade .410 built, which is the highest number we have found -- so far.

Happy hunting!

Greg
Someday we will both own one.

A few years ago, I spent three days attending a display at the Baltimore Show that included a 0000 frame BHE and a 0000 frame Gournet A-1 Special among other Parker .410s. Don't ask me any questions about that weekend. I don't remember anything. All I know is that we didn't lose anything.

Has anyone here seen, or anyone here own, a Parker Reproduction DHE .410 built on a 00-frame? I'm asking about a single gun, not a .410 that's part of a 28/.410 set.

I just finished engraving a Parker Repro , # 28-53 28ga , 2 28 barrels and a 410 barrels . Parker Repro . Brian Dudley is bluing the barrels .

Was this an in-the-white A-1 Special that you engraved Geoffroy?

Yes , Parker Repro A1 in the white . I think they are called A1 customs , the A1 special being factory engraved . I will post pictures . Time to figure out how ...

28-53
 

Well Greg- there is #53. Our chances are getting better!!!

Not so fast George, I believe it to be a different set of serial numbers for the 28-ga. guns. We're looking for a BHE .410 on a 4/0-frame, right?

It appears that Larry Baer's in-the-white A-1 Special 28/28/.410 3-bbl. set that sold in a Julia auction and mentioned several times earlier in this thread isn't the only such set reportedly made IF the gun that Geoffroy hopefully shows us is indeed S/N 28-53.
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2388-386/

Greg- any grade on a 4/0 frame- just added it to my bucket list.

[IMG]http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ggour...]=1&sort=1&o=1[/IMG]

All barrels are for the same gun, the two 28g barrels are marked 00 and the .410 barrels are marked 0000

Posting pics for Geoffroy Gournet of his breathtakingly beautiful engraving that he did on Parker Reproduction S/N 28-53.

:bowdown:WOW

Absolutely stunning.

I fell in love with Geoffroy's signature flighting woodcock several years ago.






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Awesome!!!:bowdown:
I'd be damn proud of that gun.....and hunt it.

I admittedly am a dope - how do 4/0 barrels fit on a 00 frame?

I was wondering the same thing.

They're not really 4/0-frame barrels, they are only marked that way. We are talking about the 00-frame 28-ga. sets that have added .410 barrel sets to them. These 4/0-frame sets are a different animal than the true 0000-frame .410 guns that we've been talking about throughout this thread. The confusing thing is, to my knowledge, all Parker Reproduction .410 barrels are marked 0000, although they are marked the same, there are really two different sized barrels intended for two different dimensioned frames.

So Greg my swami- what is the point?

I had asked the above question earlier in this thread. To date, there have been no responses, so I thought I'd bring it to the top for another go round. Anyone know if any Parker Reproduction DHE .410 single guns built on a 00-frame even exist?

I have seen one BHE 28/410 2 barrel set built on an OO frame.I was told at the time that it was the only set built that way.The 410 production was cut short when the Japanese closed the factory on very short notice.At the time there were only 12 competed guns,some barrels and actions in process.I believe Galazan got the parts and finished some guns.