bill even 24 grains of reddot in a 10 ga would be plenty stout...charlie

Plastic hulls and wads are more efficient. I think powder formulation has changed too. I watched a friend damage a nice Ideal grade Smith with an old MEC 11/8 oz. charge bar and Red Dot. The old bars had a fixed powder measure. The shells popped his bottom rib and slightly bulged both barrels. He denied it could be the bar throwing too much powder because he had used it since the 60's. But always in a Remington 1100. I tried to tell him that was because it was a loosey goosey auto that forgave such an overload. When I measured the powder charge it threw it was 24 grains! Like Murphy says, we don't do that anymore.