mike: it might be worth while to have a discussion about blood sports, but, it does not seem to be appropriate to this thread nor to this forum. perhaps we could continue this elsewhere?

Ed these guns were built for blood sport. Almost all the Parker, Fox, and Ithaca side by sides were built for killing birds for sport. Many if not most of our members take these guns out and use them in blood sports. If our posts about blood sports make you feel bad please don't let our fondness for you make you feel obligated to keep coming here.

Would you have felt any better if had been the secret life of Bob White Quail or Canada Geese or maybe a Walt Disney film like Bambi?

How is your post germaine to qualities of the Remington 1900 and it's use in hunting? Do you believe your post brings value to the forum? Do you think it is a respectful post for a firearm site and a firearm site that occasionally deals with hunting? If you take issue with something I do use the PM feature please and we can discuss it, don't take it public.

Life, to a carnavor is all about killing and eating. There is no moral imperative. Crows are a pest, but really there is no requirement to justify the killing of any game. I don't eat coyotes or feral cats, but I do, or have, killed them. At one time I did my very best to kill as many humans of a certain persuasion as I could. One can, of course become a monk, or a Hindu and eschew killing of all kinds, that's okay by me. But if a nice fat cock bird bursts out of the long grass I'm going to bust'em.

steve: we all need to reach a balance where we are at peace with ourselves and with those we wish to be at peace with...the trick is maintaining that peace, particularly when guilt rears its ever present head...

books: germaine? is it really necessary to bring the na zis into this?

you started this thread with a reference to your new "crow killer".

you did not say anything about crow hunting, as i recall.

course now, we can get into a discussion about the difference between hunting and killing, if you like? but not here. it just dont seem propriate...

ed you say you don't think it is appropriate to discuss it here yet you started this discussion about the morality of blood sports by giving Mr. Lester an elbow in the ribs for shooting crows. Then you say again you don't think this is the place to have a discussion and in the same paragraph try to differentiate killing from hunting.

I think it is hilarious that a double gun dealer is anti-hunting. Do your require that your prospective purchasers agree not to hunt with the gun?

mike: i am not anti hunting. however, i do take issue with those who kill just for the pleasure of it. humans, cats and weasels come to mind... has it occurred to you that very few other creatures besides us humans seem to kill for fun? ever wonder why that is?

and, i do encourage shooting clay birds with vintage double guns...great sport!

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=bleed

I say again I think it is hilarious that a double gun dealer is anti-hunting. And I repeat my question: Do you require buyers to agree not to hunt with the double guns you sell them. Would seem hypocritical to sell the means while you disapprove of the end.

Yep, Ed. You said it better than I can.

I believe that many animals kill either for the fun of it, cats chasing mice for instance, or for practice; as well as for food. In the natural world, ie killing by animals others than humans, is never questioned. We are just smart animals and killing is a part of higher life.

I love attending bull fights, but have only been to two. I've also been to many cock fights, but never in the US. Blood sports? Yep. Murderous? Sure. Thrilling? Yes. Does it bother me? Not in the least. Does the fact that i do not mind the killing in bull fights or cockfites make me cruel? Not to me, but I'm sure it does in some people's eyes. Tough.

If people don't like participating in blood sports then don't. No one is forcing them. However, if they ever get really, really hungry they'll change their tune. Even if the game is two legged with a crew cut.

mike: i started a new thread in the off topic section of this forum.

it is titled the mike and ed show. notice how i gave you top billing...

anyway, why dont we move it down there and stop trashing other peoples threads with off topic posts?

that way you can say the same thing over and over and i can respond again and again and we can have a wonderful time being redundant!

and steve, you can join us if you like, but with no billing for now...

Wow, this took a weird turn.

ed you make off topic anti-hunting posts on others' threads and then talk about staying on topic here. Quite a contradiction.

Back to your anti-hunting feelings:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=bleed


So as an anti-hunting double gun dealer how do you reconcile your guilt over shooting crows in your youth with selling double guns, some of which you know will be used to hunt?

mike: response will be found in the off topic forum, under the mike and ed show thread.

ed you make off topic anti-hunting posts on others' threads and then talk about staying on topic here. Quite a contradiction.

Back to your anti-hunting feelings:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=bleed


So as an anti-hunting double gun dealer how do you reconcile your guilt over shooting crows in your youth with selling double guns, some of which you know will be used to hunt?

and now back to the original dual topics of this thread:


The new crow killer - Remington 1900

crow killing: go to utube. you will find videos about killing crows. anyone interested will not be disappointed.

Remington 1900: it has been my experience that these guns are very well made and reliable. they also sell for significantly less than other guns of similar vintage and quality. i believe the reason these fine guns are undervalued is that typically, they are heavier and not as well balanced as the big four.

ed you make off topic anti-hunting posts on others' threads and then talk about staying on topic here. Quite a contradiction.

Back to your anti-hunting feelings:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=bleed


So as an anti-hunting double gun dealer how do you reconcile your guilt over shooting crows in your youth with selling double guns, some of which you know will be used to hunt?

You're probably right Ed. I have a Joseph Lang 10 gauge trap/pigeon gun with 32 inch barrels that feels lighter and swings better than my Remington 1900 with 28 inch tubes. That being said, the Remingtons were made to compete with Bakers, Ithacas and others of the time. I don't know what my Lang cost in 1892 but it was a hell of a lot more than the Remington.

mark: the others of the times?... circa 1900...most notably, parkers and smiths. and least we forget the lefever lefevers...course when you interject european guns into the equation, then everything changes...there is just no comparison.

its as if we were talkin about classic 1960's era american sports cars and someone asked: so how do they compare to the european sports cars?

anybody lookin for a nice 1900? take a look at auctionarms item #11590178.

I'm crushed....

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=bleed


http://parkerguns.org/forums/showpos...6&postcount=37

Would sure like ed to explain to us how someone with such gentle sensibilities can sell double guns. Seems to me like he would either quit selling double guns and join PETA or sell double guns and cease making public anti-hunting posts on double gun BBSs like this one. I guess only time will tell if ed makes peace with himself and joins PETA or sells out his conscience and continues to sell double guns to hunters, because it is pretty obvious he isn't going to answer to my question here.

Ed's posted information says he lives in New Hampshire. Has anyone ever met Ed, or seen him at a shooting event? Can't be that far to get to one of the numerous New England shoots. Where you been Ed?

big d: you sum kinda weirdo or watt?

just noticed something...what ever happened to " i before e, except after c"? is this an exception?

WOW, this is sad, you don't like killing crows but you sold pete a VH 12 ga few years ago that he killed hundreds of crow with,sooo if you get money for selling crow killing tools thats ok. if you beleive in not killing crows, than why are you selling the tools to do it with? i am 52 "olt" now:shock: mybe when i get "older " i will see the light. i hope not i LOVE CROW HUNTING !!:) yes i do kill them too. killed 826 for 2012 season , next year i will try for a 1000 bird year. scott

10 BORE: did you take a look at the crow killin videos on utube? if not, you really should.

But ed you are anti-hunting also:

Do you have any anti-hunting videos on UTube you want us to watch?

I think everyone who has been on this site for any period of time knows the at I enjoy crow hunting and find it a great way to get a lot of wing shooting on live game with Parker doubles.

I have strayed off the path, shot and sold a Fox Sterlingworth, a Baker, a Stevens an now have a couple of Remingtons that I enjoy.

There is a lot of history in the old doubles, some day perhaps I'll have an Ithaca or a Lefever. They are all interesting to me in their own way. Some are better than others.

The Remington 1900 is not a Parker, it is not as finely built, but it sure was a bargain and it sure shoots well for me and I like it. Owning and shooting a double such as the 1900 makes me realize and appreciate the care and quality that went into a Trojan, and it's easy to forget about the quality in a Trojan when it is contrasted against V's through A's on this site.

This site is good way to learn about Parkers, other doubles and even something about hunting (see hunting with Parker forum).

Hunting may not be about the kill but without the kill there is no hunt. None of us need to shoot an animal for subsistence. Eating what you shoot does not justify a kill. Many species are and have been killed because they are a predator and or a nuisance. Crows fall into both categories. They are prolific and they are managed with seasons and regulations. I enjoy shooting them, obviously you do not.

Ed, I have no idea what motivates you to make the posts that you do and in the manner that you do. You write in a manner as if you are illiterate but I am pretty sure you are not. An attempt at humor I guess but often it is using humor to mask an attack on another. I don't appreciate that and frankly I think you ruined a good thread on a "find" that I have enjoyed and shared with others.

I don't think anti-hunting sentiment has a place in the PGCA forums any more than anti-gun sentiment has here. To me it seems you enjoy stirring a pot, guess what so do I at times, but I know this is not the place for it.

Pete I certainly agree with you. When I hunt pheasant, bobwhite, sharptails etc... with my Brittanys it is a bloodsport and about the hunt, not the food. The kill is an integral part of the hunt. I also field trial my dogs in the National Shoot To Retrieve Assocation. The picture to the left was taken at one of their field trials. This is a competition for bird dogs that includes the shooting and retrieving of pen raised birds. This is also bloodsport. I pass shoot pigeons. They also shoot birds for some AKC events as I have gunned for them.

But ed is trying to cut the sport shooting of crows out from the herd and I want him to take on the whole herd.

ed there is a thread over on the Doublegun BBS about the ethics of competition pigeon shooting. I think the audience for your anti-hunting anti-crow shooting arguments will certainly be larger there than here. Of course the probability of offending a prospective purchaser of your products will be larger too.

Best,

Mike

My two cents are probably not needed but here goes; I no longer hunt myself, but I don't object to anyone else doing so. Some of my best memories are of being in the field and woods with my grandfather and father hunting grouse, pheasant and cottontails. Me with my Parker Trojan 16 gauge, my dad with a Remington 11-48 16 gauge and my grandfather with his Grade 3 Ithaca N.I.D. We killed a lot of game and we ate it all. The only critters my grandfather and I hunted for sport were woodchucks, as the local farmers here in the Hudson Valley of N.Y. were plagued by them. I guess it was a tour of duty in Vietnam that made me loose interest in the kill, but I never lost interest in double guns and still shoot sporting clays, and trap.

pete: did you bother to watch the video about the secret life of crows? i doubt it? who knows perhaps you will discover info about them that will make your crow killing experiences even more enjoyable? following is a link:

video.pbs.org/video/1621910826/

and i certainly agree with you about the remington 1900 not being a parker...but then what else is?

Ed it seems you can't help yourself when it comes to insults i.e. did I see the video? "I doubt it?"

Nice dodge on my other points BTW.

The PBS video came out 2 years ago and I saw it then. It was interesting but far from accurate scientific reporting and depiction of crow behavior.

In it they claim that a crow can see/find danger and go back to a group of crows and tell them about it. Put that scientist in my blind and I will show him that is a big load of crow poop. Birds that have just been shot at will often turn and come back for more if other crows are inbound to the call and decoys (so much for sounding the alarm or even learning that gunfire was a danger signal). They also stated if a crow sees a dead crow they will come in silent, sit in a nearby tree and not make a sound, then take off without making a sound, WRONG! Every time I have a dead crow that has dropped outside the decoys and out of range every crow that flies by circles it cawing it's head off and almost always comes into my decoys where there are usually plastic decoys and more dead crows mixed in only to get close enough to get shot.

The show is entertainment with a science veneer and factually inaccurate.

pete: as to the video, i particularly like the part about the crow in new caledonia that uses multiple tools to obtain food.

what were your other two points?

have you ever considered killing crows with an air rifle? requires far more hunting skills than just calling them in and then shooting them with a shotgun. some of the utube videos previously suggested feature stalking and ambushing crows with an air rifle.

no insult intended.

I am glad you found something to enjoy in it. As I pointed out an avid crow hunter would see it and have some skepticism about the facts presented. I don't believe I mentioned two other points that I did not explain.

I am not interested in hunting with an air rifle, or with any rifle on any game frankly. I enjoy shotguns and wingshooting. The crows provide a long season, no daily limit and can be a challenging aerial target. Many farmers appreciate them being shot.

The 1900 I bought is well suited to their pursuit with it's good fit, 30" barrels, tight chokes and ejectors and I learned more about the Remington double guns as a result.

But ed you are anti-hunting also:

Do you have any anti-hunting videos on UTube you want us to watch?

Guys Ed is baiting you....:cuss: Don't respond and maybe he and his torch will go to another site since he ads no value here with his posts.

me, baiting? day, i do believe that if you read all of mike's redundant posts here, you will also perhaps conclude, as i have, that mike is trying desperately to bait me, but alas, to no avail...

and day, please explain to us all, what does your off the wall post here, have to do with crow killing and remington model 1900 shotguns? which is after all the twin subjects of this thread.

Crow shooting must be an Eastern US event. I've never even heard of anyone shooting crows out west, cept with a rifle. Sounds like fun to me though.

The civic clubs in the small towns in this area used to put on crow hunts as a fund raiser. Start in the late evening on a full moon at a roost. Lots of fun.

ed is baiting us. That is what he does. He frequently makes some troll remark that is off-topic. Then lectures the responders to the remark in a sefl-righteous toned post about staying on topic. He is just like a 12 year old boy that runs a stick down the neighbor's fence to make their dogs bark. But he has mistakenly let his true beliefs show through his trolling. He really is anti-hunting and he isn't disputing it.

What a a paradox, an anti-hunting double gun dealer.