"Wondering is there anything left worth sticking around for. "


robert:

check out the sun rise. and then the sun set. and anything that pleases you in between.

ed

Thanks Bill! I'll have to take a picture of the gun and that Power Pac. The device is beautifully made with a wonderful blue and obvious fine machining. Most people don't have the additional screw in chokes. I do. I don't know why my little Model 12 20 doesn't cycle. EH poured his Model 12 full of oil. Patrick Hem said it puffed oil smoke on every shot. I usually shoot my guns pretty dry. Maybe I should slick my little 20 up a bit.

I've only shot my 20 at hand tossed skeet and it was frustrating to shoot, never knowning if it'd cycle or not. I put it down in disgust and wanged away with my old Knickerbacher DU 20. I think it's a Baker. It's a side lock gun and was my dad's, given to him, used, when he was ten.

I did the same, but probably some of my EH motivation was subliminal. I read my first EH book when I was about 15 and within a few years I had pretty much read them all. I still can't get through Death In the Afternoon, but I love the title.

I also read Boyington's Ba Ba Blacksheep and a few years later I was flying in that squadron. This was taken just before I joined VMA-214
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...kyhawks003.jpg

steve: could be a little gunk build up behind the shell stop? try squarting it with a fast drying silicone spray...if that does not work, maybe the shell stop is bent. anyway, if you want to solve problem professionally, let me know via private post and i will refer you to a gunsmith with the skill and experience to fix it. ed

Gun is in the safe. I'll dig it out and mess with it. I'll also take some pics. I've got a pretty good Model 12 gunsmith close by. He's done some work on them for me before. He's got two right now.

Thanks again.

Delk & McCarthy:
Kudos to you both. And no... there is little left hanging around for. Everything is a disappointment in the end. Papa knew that. And he sadly decided to deal with it. But please excuse me. I might have had a pint. And I'm in the same business he was. On the other hand, "cheers!" Why the heck not!

Best, Kensal

The existential concept, that life is what one makes of it, may have been the source of EH's "get'r done" motif. I find his masculinity, which has fallen from vogue in the US today, refreshing. I think he killed himself because his over the top male image, which was so important to his make up, had slipped. In addition his thinking may have been muddled.

Is there something worth "hanging around for"? In the mind of the existentialist, there is only if one is capable of making life worth living. EH thought not. He blew the entire top of his head off. His death provided a stange sort of continuiety with his beginning and middle. He went out in a flash of gunfire and gore, somehow it fits.

This is a good thread and has me interested in getting the Hemingway book now.

boys if these parker threads dont want to make you hang around then......lifes to short as it is im trying to enjoy every moment even though a rock gets in the road every once in a while... charlie

EH's life is compelling because so many "real men" would like to mimic Hemingway's. Certainly Hem thought that he lived a near perfect existance, but did he? That is the rub and to find out if he did, many of us are drawn to his writings and bios.

I think it was Hotchner, a Hemingway Pal and a biographer, who said, "All real men either want to be like Hemingway, or be liked by him." I wonder. But I have to admit, I would have enjoyed hunting with him and running around the Carib hunting for Nazi subs and attending bull fights sitting next to him listening to his running dialogue.

Was Hem a "nice guy"? Not sure. I suspect that he only liked people who also liked him.

EH always struck me as being the same as the principal male character in his writings. Somewhat aloof, a hard drinker & womanizer and very hard on the few friends that he had. His life and thoughts were, for the most part, contained within himself and very seldom did he allow others to see the true EH. JMHO

George

Hem was a self made creation. He taught us who he either was, or decided he wanted to be. He was also "full of himself", something that makes him seem borish today. In his day a man's man was accepted, sadly not so much in the modern era.

Did he keep his real self secret? I don't think he had much to hide. He wasn't for instance, a closet gay, or cross dressor (as was one of his sons). I do think he was a braggart and demanded that his friends genuflect before his throne.

Would he be fun to partner with on a hunt? Only if one loved and admired him. Since I don't, I think the outing would be problematic. I think Ruark would have been easier to get along with while on safari. Not sure I could handle his bush martini's tho...warm gin served in a plastic cup....with lunch.

Steve:
Whoever Hemingway "was," he was certainly a man of importance, as this thread testifies. And a damn good writer. Ruark, on the other hand, fancied himself a bush league Hemingway -- but never quite lived up to Papa's towering image.
Nonetheless, warm gin is better than no gin. Cup composition aside.

Best, Kensal

Yes indeed Hem lived a larger than life, life. So, but to a lessor extent, did Ruark. I agree that Ruark felt as if he lived and worked in Hem's shadow and one seldom considers him without comparing him to EH. Last year and for the third time I re-read most of what both men wrote. I found Hem somewhat dated and Ruark not so much. Some, IMHO of Hem's work is unreadable, Death In the Afternoon being one that I have never been able to dig through. Nor have I been able to stick with Ruark's The Honey Badger.

Ruark's best is Something of Value and I love the work. Hem's early books I read for their style, the stories IMHO hackneyed. My fave Hem book is one of his least important, A Moveable Feast which has been published in several versions....the latest is the best.

I think that both men were great writers and maybe great men. Hem is unique and people will be reading about him for a lot time to come. Stephen Crane was a better writer than either tho. So was Fitzgerald when in his prime.

Of all of the men's men who many of use enjoy considering and reading about my very favorite is the Englishmen, Sir Richard Burton....not the movie star; the other one. He is not very well known today, but in his time he was. Neither Speak nor Stanley were slouches either. Some think Stanley was an American (He fought and was wounded at Shiloh), but he was not. He was an orphaned English runaway.

The Devil Drives tells us about Burton. Quite an amazing story.

I think that we should remember that great men are but men and have the same failings as do we all. Hemingway's stories inspired me to write many decades ago and for that I am thankful. If I had known him personally I may not have respected him. If I were however I bigger man I would have forgave him his shortcomings.

I am a bit of a writer too and I have also been influenced by HEM. I like the "no guts, no glory" persona of the man. I have often wondered if I'd like to be around HEM. To this day, I don't know if I would or not.

But really now, wouldn't it have been fun to run around in the Carib with a couple of Tommy Guns hunting for UBoats? Might dabble in some fishing too.

Pappy Boyington's book Ba Ba Blacksheep inspired me to join the Corps to become a fighter pilot and I actually did become a member of VMA 214! (VMFA today).

Ernest Hemingway's Birthday July 21 1898. Hapy birthday Ernest.
David

Hhttp://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/P1010576.jpgEM's model 12 looked something like this:

His gun was made in 1928. Mine, shown here came from the factory in 1923, but the wear looks about like Ernie's gun.

I don't think Hemingway was ever happy starting with a very troubled childhood including being dressed like a girl and watching his mother ( a repressed and somewhat closeted lesbian ) berate his father on a daily basis. A good case could also be made that he suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a result of his combat wounding in Italy. Like many angry vets he sought solace in booze, women and brawling in a primitive attempt to deal with the devils inside. Man, could that write.

Best of All, He Loved The Fall
 

--The same eulogy that Ernest Hemingway wrote in 1939 for his Idaho friend, who died in a duck hunting accident near Silver Creek, could as well have been his own in 1961. I was still in HS when he took his own life, we had read both "Big Two-Hearted River" and "The Snows of Kilamanjaro" as part of English Lit. back then. He had a flair for picking great titles. I was editor of our HS paper my Senior year, and always respected his solid background as a reporter and a correspondent.

I have an older Model 12, as apparently he did, and this excerpt from the book "The Idaho Hemingway" by Tillie Arnold speaks to his views on guns as working tools for a hunter: "Ernest and Lloyd were opening up the gun cases, removing guns, and I saw Lloyd (Tillie Arnold's husband) pick up a Winchester Model 12 pump shotgun. As he did so, he told Ernest that he also owned one. But I could see that Lloyd was shocked when he opening and closed the breech.--' It rattled, it's action was loose, oil sprayed out of the action and the stock had a major split, so loose it almost fell off. ' Ernest noticed Lloyd's attention to the loose stock and said ' I'll bet your Model 12 isn't as beat up as mine. ' 'Ernest, this stock is a bit loose. ' Ernest replied ' Yeah, we gotta get her tightened up, Chief-- I can't operate without this old stopper."

This was in September 1939, a month or so before the tragic death of Gene Van Guilder. Going back to the Model 12 from an earlier 1933 occurance, the fire at the Pfeiffer (Hemingway's second wife, Pauline Pfeiffer, heiress to the Richard Hudnut cosmetics wealth) farm in Piggott, AK-- and from his later published book about Africa- "True at First Light"-- pg. 240: "I had the old, well-loved, once burnt up, three times restocked, worn smooth old Winchester model 12 pump gun that was faster than a snake, and was from 35 years of us being together (1928-1953), almost as close a friend and companion with secrets shared and triumphs and disasters not revealed as the other friends a man has all his life"--

I find this quote reveals both Hemingway's credo that "Guns are to shoot, and to shoot with well" and also the same affection that a man would have with his hunting dogs.

Booth's House of Lords or Gordons please
 

Well said indeed. Two somewhat "obscure" books written about Ernest Hemingway that are quite telling, IMO anyway: "Hemingway in Cuba" by Hilary Hemingway and Carlene Brennen and "The True Gen" by Denis Brian. Strange that in mentioning Robert Ruark, who died in Spain in 1965, no body has mentioned his "The Old Man and The Boy" series for Field and Stream. Top shelf work there. And his "The Honey Badger" has Alex Barr as Ruark with his hand-to-mouth existence as a newspaperman, as much as Hemingway's "Islands In The Stream" has Thomas Hudson (painter) as Hemingway's alter ego.

Lightening up the loafers??
 

Alice B. Toklas and Pauline Pfeiffer's sister Jinny were both Lesbians, back at the time when homosexuality was a dark dirty secret. There is a theory that one reason for Hemingway's youngest son, Gregory (aka- GiGi) turned out so "mixed up' about his sexual orientation is the great amount of time he spent in the care of Jinny Pfeiffer, while his mother and father were away on jaunts. Unlike Pauline's super wealthy uncle Gustavus Pfeiffer, who favored Ernest and Pauline with funds to: Take their first trip to Africa-- order the Wheeler fishing boat named the Pilar, purchased several new cars and also bought the house in Key West on Whitehead street for them, Jinny hated Ernest and did apparently try to be a divisive force in their troubled marriage. The best read on this is Bernice Kert's novel "The Hemingway Women", she did her research very well indeed.

Grantham: A mile east of Sun Valley is where the Ernest Hemingway Memorial is located. The inscription reads

Best of all he loved the fall
The leaves yellow on the cottonwoods
Leaves floating on the trout streams
and above the hills
The high blue windless skies
now he will be part of them forever.


This is part of the eulogy that Ernest Hemingway gave for Gen Van Guilder in 1939.
Grantham I did enjoy your posts. Thank you

PS I will post up some more Idaho imformation later when I get "un busy".Wife Mary has a "job jar " with my name on it. and the fish are Bitin
David Lien

I can see the headlines now PGCA IS COVER GROUP FOR LITERARY SCHOLARS ....in my humble opinion if you want to see photos of Hemingway with shotguns and not be burdened by wading through photos of Africa ,then you can't go wrong with High On The Wild With Hemingway which does a nice job of illustrating the bird shooting in Sun Valley when it was not developed.Some members might cringe since it shows him in many photos with a Browning Superposed. I have only been a member for four days but I think my mind is on overload.

Lots of history in Idaho
 

-- My wife grew up in Emmett- about 2 hours drive from the Sun Valley complex. I have read the book "High On The Wild With Hemingway", and like the Tillie Arnold book, it shows Hemingway loving the area, because he- and stars like his pal Gary Cooper were not given special treatment, they we accepted as regular folks and avid sportsmen. One telling story about Hemingway- they enjoyed great pheasant, duck and dove hunting on area farms and ranches. On one, the farmer and his family had been hard hit by the Depression and the plague of jackrabbits that devoured his crops- so not only did Hemingway organized great rabbit hunts, he also paid to have the farmer's truck overhauled by a local mechanic- his way, I suppose, of saying "Thanks" for letting us hunt on your property. Possibly in tribute to his new-founded love of Idaho, Hemingway named one of his many cats "Boise"!!

All young boys were dressed as girls in the early 20th Century, or Little Lord Fantleroy (sp) which may have been worse.

I doubt that Ernie suffered from PTS, nor do I think as many people suffer from it today as some think. We all jumped when a car backfired and had nightmares, but those things lesson to tolerable levels. Ernie loved telling stories of his wounds and would give lectures holding up his bloody trousers. If he had been uncomfortable with the experience he would have kept mum.

Indeed Hem's family suffered from mental problems, probably depression, maybe bi-polar. Mother a lesbian? I doubt it. Father hen pecked? I don't know. I think Ernie enjoyed his childhood, the hunting, fishing/camping and he said he loved his dad. Ernie was not a closet gay, but some to this day think he was.

Was he a vet finding solace in booze? Maybe, but there are many non-vets who do the same and in reality he did not experience much combat. A morter round did impact close buy, but only one and few experienced PTS unless they suffered through many hits over a prolonged period of time. Leslie Howard was seriously shell shocked after suffering near misses over an extended period of time, many did. One near miss? A piece of cake.

I do think, however; that at some point Ernie slipped into some form of insanity and it came on late in his life. I suspect after his two plane wrecks, but during his 20's through his early 50's he was pretty much in control and frankly having a wonderful time. Hem was always in love with Hem and he was insulted if others didn't follow his lead. This did not require insanity, but his ego was....well.......amazing. So is Obama's, is he nuts too?

Like Billy the Kid, Americans are somehow captivated by Hemingway, and I am one of them. When I find an article about Hem I read it with gusto. As for Billy the Kid? Just ask me.

Isn't it ironic, that what celebrities seek-celebrity, also drives them crazy and they try hard to avoid acclaim. I have never been to Ketchum, but I read that his home there was no great shakes and really a few slabs of concrete pushed up. Have you seen it? If so, what was your impression of the place?

Hem loved to shoot his Winchester and his Model 12 was loose as a goose and over oiled. He replaced the stock as least once and after it aged, and was shot, it spit out a fine mist of oil.

I have a friend who says that if he could come back, he'd like to come back as Sinatra. I'd rather be Hemingway....at least for his first 50 years or so.

BTW: If I could come back as anyone, I'd want to return as Ben Franklin, but I'd shoot more that he did.

I bought an ancient, beat up Superposed just because Hem shot one, but didn't he also shoot that O/U Beretta a bunch too? The guns look similar.

Those Superposed used to be the cat's meow. I guess they have fallen from favor today. Is it their weight? Are they considered overly complex?

CONGRATULATIONS Andy, I'll bet you have a ball. Good shooting too.

You wrote of several things that I did not know. Thanx.

I just Finished Valerie Hemingway's book about her life with the "Hemingway Men". She was Hem's final secretary and also married Gregory "Gigi", meeting him at Hem's funeral. Gigi was a cross dresser from his early life (according to Valerie), which was probably why Hem disowned him - refused to mention his name, etc...

I wonder if there is a reason that people become cross dressors, or do they just have a hankering to do such a thing? Probably varies with the individual. Gigi took it to extremes, having a sex change operation and changing his name to Gloria. Weird. He died in a women's jail.

Beautiful post.

some really deep and good thinking here.... charlie

A Hemingway biographer's comments--
 

Hemingway described with unusual knowledge and authority physical pleasure, the natural world, violent experiences, and sudden death. He portrayed the heroic possibilities and tragic consequences of wars, the psychic dislocation in battle, and the stoicism of survival. He created unsurpassed images of Italy, France, Spain, and Africa. As a man, he had intense idealism, curiosity, energy, strength, and courage. He attractively combined hedonism and hard work, was a great teacher of ritual and technique, carried an aura of glamor and power. As an artist, he wrote as naturally as a hawk flies and as clearly as a lake reflects."

Ernest Hemingway died 51 years ago this month. IMO, he, and one other American writer, who also had a newspaper reporter's training, have been enduring influences on the entire field of literature, and will be so for as long as man takes pen to paper. The other writer is Samuel Langhorn Clemens.

Steve , i humbly disagree with some of the points you raised about my comments and would ask you to condsider , with an open mind, my response.Hemingway was dressed as a girl not to fit in with fashion but because his mother wanted twin girls.This was a fantasy she was very open about.Hemingway had nightmares at Christmas because he was afraid Santa would think he was a girl and bring him girl toys. As I remember it Hemingways mother moved a female student into their house because she was in love with her. You can imagine what this did to his fathers self esteem. Your comments about his wounds not being too much to be concerned with are open to a further debate. I must assume that you like me are a combat vet and have a valid point of view. I can only say that a mortar attack is frightening event and stays with you for a long time .Hemingways uniform was shredded and his body filled with shrapnel.We really don't know a lot about PTSD and there is no hard and fast rule about who is vulnerable to the after effects of combat. When viet nam vets came back early from the war and complained of hearing voices and screaming in their heads they were incorrectly diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia .Little did the doctors know that real past experiences of combat were being replayed in their heads. Hemingway was diagnosed as bipolar and I think the episodes of fighting and boozing during his manic stages are very well documented. I rest my case and will now open the Bourbon and go to sleep.

Hemingway was decorated for bravery after Fossa
 

There was no question during WW1, when Italy was NOT an ally of Germany, unlike WW11, about Hemingway's courage. He lied about his age by one year and tried to get into the US Army, but was turned down due to poor eyesight, mainly in his right eye. So he volunteered for the Red Cross as an ambulance driver, received a commission as a Lt. by the Italian Army, and went under heavy fire to rescue two Italian soldiers wounded by German mortar fire. Both his legs were filled with shrapnel, and he recuperated in an Italian hospital (later the theme in "A Farewell To Arms") and fell in love with a nurse who tended to his wounds. His short story "Soldier's Home" may speak to what we now commonly call PTSD.

Hemingway's mother, Grace Hall, was a somewhat talented opera singer and musician, about in the order of German opera singer Gertrude Schenk. She lived across the street from Dr. Hemingway, who had his medical practice in his home, and after a courtship, they were married. She dominated Dr. Hemingway in their marriage and the five children they had together, two boys: Ernest, and his 15 year old junior brother, Leicester, the last of the litter. Both Ernest, Leicester, his father Dr. Clarence Hemingway and later Hemingway's third son, Gregory-- committed suicide.

In one of his stories about his boyhood in Oak Park, Hemingway detailed his mother's callous disregard for her husband. He had just returned from a hunting trip (he was a superb wingshot with hawk-like vision, unlike Ernest) and while he was gone Grace threw out all his bottled collection of bird and animal specimens, plus his collection of Indian artifacts, mostly arrowheads picked up when they summered in Northern MI at their Windemeer cottage on Walloon Lake--

reading this makes me want to cut a hickory switch and give himmingways momma a good thrashing... charlie

Thank you, Andy for your kind and thoughtful response. I have read several bios of Hem; Bakers, and Hotchners and I've read other biographical pieces. I read them when the works were first published...so some I read 20 years ago, and my memory, being martini soaked may be, and probably is, flawed.

Carlos Baker's book was my fave, and I think I still have it. I should re-read. Concerning the VN war, I was an attack pilot and did not spend time in the bush, as you apparently did. When we experienced the occassional rocket attack we had to get our Marines off of the roofs of their hooches because they wanted to click away with their new Japanese cameras.

The experience of war affects different people differently, and yes, HEM was badly wounded. I believe he spent a year in the hospital where he met and fell in love with his nurse, Agnes, several years his senior. I doubt he suffered from PTSD because he did not hesitate to discuss the event and was proud of it.

Nor do I see evidence of serious metal disease, as you allude to. As I posted earlier, I do believe that he experienced a mental disorder, but only late in life when he suffered brain damage by butting his head into the door of his crashed aircraft. Dura fluid leaked from his ears. Hem must have become depressed and with today's drugs he probably would have done much better than he did. He was under a doctor's care and he took drugs and shock treatments.

Hem experienced many successes which leads me to believe that he was not only sane but also in control, at least for most of his life. Hard writing requires a clear head and organized mind.

Hem was ego driven; not unique. When his self image began to falter (in his eyes) his ego was crushed. He could not tolerate the man he had become and being a man of action, he killed himself.

Which leads us to the question: Can a man with such a gigantic ego and all consuming self awareness who committed suicide also be sane? As I am sure you can tell I am no expert, my degree is in history. Was Hem tormented because he was dressed as a girl? I doubt it, because it was a common practice.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...es009-Copy.jpg

This boy is John Ernest Robert, Sallie and William Robert's eldest son. Sallie was a friend of Billy the Kid. She dressed her son in a dress. He turned out fine. This boy was born in 1881.

Steve, you make many thoughtful remarks and I'm glad we're still friends..I think my clinical impression about the PTSD diagnosis comes mostly from my experience with VN vets in the Tucson VA hospital when I was doing an internship there. One common thread among the vets was a seemingly normal life prior to the war and then living a nightmare when they returned. Speaking about war experiences or not speaking about them really wasn't a hard and fast measurement of sound mental health. I think that it is very telling that in The Sun Also Rises the narrator, a war vet, has been emasculated due to a war wounding. Maybe that was Hemingway trying to tell us how he felt about his own war experience ....Aren't we supposed to be discussing Parkers.

Book order en route
 

I am going to order a copy of this book about Hemingway and his guns- from all the replies posted here, it sounds like a great read. So-- the question before us-- did the late Ernest Hemingway ever own and shoot Parkers??