Wills Patent for 2-Piece Shell
 

Dave,

I found the Video about how to attach a file, so I will try to send my first pictures to the forum as the Patent for your spectacular shell.

Dave,

I see you uploaded it as a .pdf, which seems to be easier to read than the two jpgs I sent.

That is a very interesting shell. It was from the very early days, when shells were still difficult to buy in many parts of the country.

Richard

Only five years later and we get the beginning of modern shot shell reloading, how fast it all changes.

Thanks for sharing! I have a pair of Parker 12Ga brass. Just love them!

Eleven GA information
 

Austin asked me to post these two documents to this thread. The first is a collection on documents discussing chamber size. The second is a list of Parker 11 ga. guns as you will find in the Parker Gun Identification & Serialization book.

Thank You Robin
 

Thank you, Robin. Imagine! Polishing a 12 bore to .730 in to save it! That would be as bad as fixing a Rolls with a Bentley washer!

Best, Austin

Robin,

This 1882 article from Stonehenge in The Field should be viewed with caution. It appears to contains a number of errors. Proof testing of gun barrels in Europe began sometime in the fifteenth century and was well established in St. Etienne, France, Liege, Belgium and Ferlach, Austria. The second charter for London Gunmakers Company was granted in 1672 and gave powers for searching, proving and marking gun barrels. The Scale of Proof for Smooth Bore Breech Loading Arms (Fourth Class) that was in effect in England at the time the Field article appeared would have been the London Proof Bill of 1868. It provided the compulsory standards for the provisional and definitive proving of barrels ans established a penalty of 20 pounds sterling for selling a gun with unproven barrels and possible imprisonment for anyone found guilty of forging the proof marks on barrels.

According to this act, the proof testing was compulsory and must be carried out in accordance with the following bores dimensions with the specified powder and shot charges for the provisional and definitive proof as specified. These laws were never passed in the US, but there is evidence that Parker was well aware of them from the fact that they used the correct loads for proof testing barrels. Bill Furnish and I found several Parker's that had 11 gauge bores but were listed as either 12ga or 10 ga guns in the Serialization. This is still a puzzle. Several of the early lifter hammer guns have a number stamped on the barrels that does not match the bore size. Some of the 11 bores are stamped 12 and others are marked 11 or 10. I am coming to suspect that they may have been tamped in Liege, Belgium when they were first given a provisional proof test before they were shipped to Parker. I would like to hear from others as to whether or not this idea makes any sense.


The Bore diameters as set forth in the 1868 proof act are as follows:

Bore Number

13 - 0.703" to 0.709
13/1 - 0.710" to 0.719"

12 - 0.720" to 0.729"
12/1 - 0.730" to 0.740"

11 - 0.741" to 0.751"
11/1 - 0.752" to 0.763"

10 - 0.764" to 0.775"
10/1 - 0.776" to 0.784"
10/2 - 0.785" to 0.793"

If the barrel was tapered, the diameter was to be measured 9 inches in front of the breech.


Richard,

Austin,

I would like to know your thoughts about the markings on the early Damascus barrels.
Several are marked C 12, C 10 or C 11, but the C looks a bit more like a left parenthesis ( than a C.

Any information about the meaning of these barrel marks would be greatly appreciated. I have given my idea above, but maybe someone has found some records or writings that give a clearer picture. Also, are these similar marks found on other very early guns by other makers?

Richard

C 10 C 11 C12
 

Richard; I have two $135 grades, a C10 and a C12. A good friend has a $250 grade C11. I think these barrels were purchased semi finished by Parker Bros before King joined as barrel contractor and superintendent. Note that many elevens appear in the 2000 serial , few in the threes, and fewer in the fours. This was probably due to King's beginning of successful barrel boring at Parker, but using up prior stock. Does anyone have an eleven with King's breech?
It should be noted that King's patent boring process tooling bored .750 bores in twelve ga from somewhere around s/n 5000 to 70000.

Best, Austin

Austin,

Do you have the chamber and bore dimensions of these $135 and $250 Parker's and the s/n. Also have you encountered any of these early lifter guns with full length tapered bores? I think this was done in an effort to produce a tighter pattern, but it apparently was not a success as it appears to have been done only for a short period of time sround 1874 as far as I know now. More measurements on early hammer guns wold be most interesting.

Thanks,

Richard

Eleven Gauge Parker
 

My 3215, a $250 grade, is also a C12. I measured all my chambers with a plug gauge, not a bore mic.
Jim Parker's Eleven Ga lettered with B12 chambers. All of the 11 ga guns were made prior to 1875, when Parker flyers offered only 10 and 12 ga guns. Other gauges were available with a surcharge: ie Gary's first 20 ga. Do you think the surcharge should letter on the elevens?

Best, Austin

Austin,

I agree that almost all 11 gauge Parker's were made prior to S/N 6000, but there appear to be a few exceptions. The Parker Story lists 46740, which would have been made in 1885, as an 11 gauge with 30" barrels. I do not know if this gun still exists, but would love to get measurements from it if it does. Bill Furnish, Charlie Herzog and I have found evidence for four others with post 1875 serial numbers --- 1877 S/N 8900 (11 bore barrels chambered for 12A brass shells); 1878 - 12053 (chambered for paper 11 or brass 11A shells); 1879 - 14827 (chambered 10A); and 1882 - 25991 (chambered 11A).

I was also fascinated by what you said about Jim Parker's 11 gauge. Is it really chambered for a 12B shell? I have seen evidence for them chambered 11, 11A, 10B and 12A but never 11B or 12B.

I am intrugued about your comment regarding the surcharge. It would be interesting to see if there is an indication for a surcharge on any of these 5 post 1875 Parker 11 bores. Would you be able to check this out?

Richard

Parker 8900
 

The list of 11ga guns that I posted contains that top action gun. I think some one found it to be an entry error in our "Odd Gauges" discusion in Parker Pages.
I owned 8900 in the 1990's. It shows in the middle of a run of 12/30 inch guns in "Serialization. My notes show it to be .755/.755 cyl bores, with slightly short 12 ga chambers. Could that number be transposed?
7004 .756/.759
18122 .752/.751

The gauge surcharge was still present at 17448, as my lifter 20 carried it.

Best, Austin

Austin,

That data matches the measurements BIll Furnish and I got for S /N 8900 in the mid 1990's. WE concluded it was an 11-gauge gun with 810" diameter chambers, perfect for Brass 12A shells. Do you know if 46740 still exists and if the bores and chambers have been measured. I did not see the article you mentioned.

Thanks,

Richard

Parker Bores
 

The Parker Story shows that there was an abrupt change in Parker barrels near s/n 70000. This figure was used in a Parker Pages article relative to this, and has been on the forum in the past. It is a frequency analysis of Parker 12 ga bore diamerters, showing the abrupt change with the post 70000 tooling.
The two large circles are from live bird guns; much similar to Super Foxes, but may have been post production re bores.
Best, Austin

The full-length taper: I have a 10 ga 1883 Colt that he's a choked modified right barrel and a full length tapered left. I have often wondered about why one would go to the trouble of a full length tapered bore? David

David,

That is interesting. I suspect that those early full length tapered bores were made during experiments to obtain improvements in choke. In the late 1860's and 1870's Parker, Greener and other makers were just learning about choking methods, and some of the very early Parkers had relief muzzle boring, while others had constrictions of different extent, contour and degree.

Have you patterned your two barrels? Also did you do the measurements of the bores to determine the bore diameters were from chamber to muzzle. If so, I would be very much interested in learning the results.

Richard

Austin,

That plot is very strange. I would like to read the article where it was published. By the very definition of shotgun gauge it truly makes no sense. Did it say where the bore diameter was measured? It was well known long before Parker started making shotguns that a gun with a bore diameter of 0.740" to .751" is a tight 11-bore and .751" and above is a wide 11-gauge and should be proof tested accordingly. It seems to me that such over boring of the barrels would result in loss of pressure, permit escape of gasses around the wad, and reduce the shooting quality of the gun. Parker always prided themselves on making a hard shooting gun. I had always thought they abandoned production of eleven gauge guns by the mid-1870's. Why would they make 11-bore barrels for "12-gauge" guns? That is really wierd. Please give me the info about the Parker Pages article---maybe it gives some clues.

Thanks,


Richard

My grade 0 underlifter S/N 8036 has chambers (3") that measure .810 as best I can measure with small digital calipers. The bore diameters are .744 and .746. I'm sure the chambers, forcing cones, and chokes have been messed with. The bore diameters are consistant from about 6" from breach to the start of the choke.

What do I have?

Also, my 12ga TL S/N 27356 have chamber diameters of .810 and bores of .758. These are consistant with Austin's plot.

I am by no means an expert on this topic, all I can go on is guns that I have own/examined myself. My 12 bore G hammer has .751-.752 bores with .810 chambers (45,000 serial # range). Also, my 10 bore D hammer has .793 bores with standard chambers as well (50,000 range). I have recently examined another 0 grade 10 bore with this exact configuration (25,000 range).

I use thin walled brass in both my 12 and 10 bores, with 11 and 9 gauge wads respectably. From what I understand about this topic, these dimensions are common for Parker guns of this vintage. I don't know when "modern" dimensions became the standard, i.e .729, .775 etc. for Parker guns, although Austin's chart gives us a pretty good idea. There is nothing that confuses me more about Parker shotguns than the 11 gauge discussion. According to some people's definition I own one, as do many others. I think the larger bore diameters are just common for early guns.

Time to break open my copy of TPS to bone up on this topic.

Bore Plot
 

Thank you for your inputs. That graph appeared in Parker Pages a few years ago. It is based on measurements of bores of guns with .810 chambers, made with a Stan Baker Bore gauge. It represents mostly my own Parkers; I had many more measurements but did not "busy up" the plot. The measurements were made in a similar way as those of the Super Fox in the DGJ article.
I spent a pleasant day with TSP, reviewing King's work, and bore measurements. I can only conclude that King's tooling used from around s/n 7000 to 70000 bored .750+/- twelve gauge bores. Also, 11 gauge guns are no longer listed in catalogs and price lists after 1872.
I will write a summary of this for Parker Pages.

Best, Austin

Richard, I will pattern the Colt barrels and do the measurements. I did find that the Colt chambers are not tapered and that a brass shell from my 10 ga Parker lifter would not go back all-the-way into the Parker chamber after being fired in the Colt. David

Forrest,

The "modern" definition of Shotgun gauge size in relation to bore diameter is determined by the laws of physics and mathematics and the English system of weights and measures. A sphere of lead that weighs 1/12 of a pound has a diameter of 0.729 inches. It takes eleven lead spheres of 0.751" diameter to weigh exactly one pound. It traces back to the middle ages when cannon bore dimensions were defined by the weight of a lead ball they fired. A full cannon was a 42 pounder and fired a 42 pound cannon ball. A 12 gauge gun that is severely pitted or has been honed could easily have the bore diameter of an 11 or even a 10 gauge size. We know from the records that in the early days (1872 to 1875) Parker made a number of 11-gauge guns and chambered them 11A (.825" head diameter) and others were made for 12A brass or 12 Paper shells (0.810") which is the proper chamber size for 12gauge guns made today, Some of the early 11-ga Parkers were chambered for 10A shells (0.849" head diameter) and have a record of one 11-gauge Parker that was chambered for the Parker 11B shell ( 0.792"). I have also measured a 12-gauge Parker that was chambered for the 11B shell

Thank you for your reply Richard. I am very familiar with the origins of the gauge system for bore size. What I meant by "modern", is when did guns become standardized as to where a 12 gauge gun had a .729 diameter bore. This is a fairly modern occurrence, I would estimate this happened sometime in the mid 19th century. For example the British Board of Ordinance documents that a musket's "caliber" was not the bore size, but the size ball it shot. A Brown Bess musket had a actual bore size of around .760-.800 but fired a ball of around .690. It's caliber was referred to as being 13 balls to the pound, not 10 or 9. The same for the 42 pound cannon example you gave. For arguments sake say a 42 pound cannon ball measures 6". I will bet you a Coke that the actual bore diameter of the cannon is larger than 6", so why isn't it called a 41 1/2 pounder or a 41 pounder, by "modern" standards?

Today things are backwards from those early definitions. If you can find ball slugs for your 12 gauge, they will not measure .729, but somewhere around .690-.700. Why don't we call the gun a 13 gauge? It is because more recent standards have determined that a 12 gauge should have a bore size of .729 regardless of what size ball it shoots. I might argue that a Parker with a .750 bore is a more true 12 gauge because it can shoot a full sized .729 ball.

I think if there was a wide spread data collection of the bore sizes of the guns in the serial number range Austin gave (7,000-70,000) we would be shocked at the thousands of "11 gauge" guns that are floating around out there, if we went by bore size alone. Your reference to chamber dimensions may be the only way to accurately determine what the gun was originally classified as (if the Parker records for that specific gun are incomplete). Throw in the "A" and "B" chamberings and you get to a whole new level of headaches. I thank you for trying to add some clarity to this subject.

Do any of you know if there has been published data made available of full hull/chamber dimensions of the A and B versions of each gauge. This might go a long way as to clarifying this topic.

I guess all these measurements are interesting if your a statistician and want to track the evolution that Parker made to their barrels over the years but how does it impact using modern 12ga ammo in these over sized bores?

Many years ago when Stan Baker was alive, he manufactured barrels that were bored out to .800 using standard 12ga chambers. If I remember correctly, pressures were only slightly reduced due to the larger bore diameter however most of the pressure is developed in the chamber or slightly forward of the chamber so pressure wasn't greatly affected. I also think velocity was slightly increased due to less barrel friction as the wad/shot moved up the barrel. Modern wads would properly seal against the barrel. Many modern guns are overbored from the factory and well known gunsmiths like Tom Wilkenson believe in improved patterns by overboring barrels but not as drastic as Baker.

To sum up what's been discussed (correct me if I'm wrong)

1. Parker made 11ga barrels with .825+ chambers and .851 bores mostly prior to 1874 in the 2000-6000 S/N range. Some of these guns may have been entered as 10ga or 12ga when they are really 11ga.

2. Many Parkers in the range of 7,000 to 70,000 have standard 12ga chambers with bores of .750 +/-. No problem at all shooting modern 12ga ammo in these guns.

3. After 70,000 bore diameters were mostly in the .730 to .734 range.

Forrest,

I regret my wording may have been awkward and I assure you I did not mean to insult in any way. I am very well aware that Parker enthusiasts are extremely knowledgeable about shotguns. However, I have been wading in this 11-gauge thicket for over two decades now and things just seem to get curiouser and curiouser. There is no doubt that Parker made 11-gauge shotguns in the 1866 to 1875 period. They designated many of them as 11's in both the Order and Stock books. This was done even in cases when the guns were chambered for 12-gauge shells.

To support this notion, I attach a copy of Pgs. 48 and 49 from the Parker Order Book of 1872. As you can see, Order 2075 of July 1st 1872 was for a $150 10 Ga Parker with 30" barrels, chambered for 10A brass shells and shipped with 50 10 A shells. Order 2076 was for a 1-11-32 $135 Damascus barrel gun and 50 12A shells. Similarly 2078 was an Order for a 135$ 11-ga Parker and it was sold with 100 12A shells. Order 2071 was for a $75 12-ga. gun and it was shipped with 3 doz shells at $6 and 50 paper shells (price not shown). Order 2293 of Feb. 1873 from W. L. Harrod of Norwalk, Ohio was for a $100 Iron Barrel 11-ga Parker with "Stock Tough and Curly" and "No Checking" was chambered for brass 11B shells. I have an 11-gauge Parker that was chambered for 11A Brass or 11 Paper shells. I also have one chambered for 10A brass shells and have seen data for another one.

I have measured the bores and chambers of many Parkers, but they were almost all early lifter guns. Many of them are precisely 12-gauge (.729" bores chambered 12Barrels (such as the Meriden Prototype #06 that was initially thought to be S/N 90 and a 14-ga gun because of the 12B chambers).

The Proof Testing of barrels was well established in Europe before Charles parker started making shotguns, and there is evidence he was well aware of those standards. The History of Shotgun Proving is beautifully described in the small book by Purdey and the 1868 Provisional and Definitive Proof loads are given in the Table by Greener (Attached). Parker was not required to use these standards, but there is evidence in TPS that Proker Proved all of his barrels and the standard Provisional and Definitive Proof loads shown in the Greener Table appear to have been used at the Parker Factory.

Now the mysteries :banghead: are:

Why would Parker have made 11-bore dimension barrels and called the guns 12-gauge during this serial number range? This would have resulted in lower pressures, and possibly improved patterns by reducing deformation of the shot.

Did they Proof test these barrels with the loads and charge for 11-bore barrels? And are there any records about precisely how Parker Proof Tested their Barrels at different times? Maybe they changed back to the correct bore dimensions when chilled shot was introduced? Does anyone know if the date of the introduction of lead show with antimony added to increase the hardness is at about the same time as the S/N 70,000 Parkers??

I am delighted more people are becoming interested in measuring their barrels. I have a nice set of Bore and Chamber gauges. Unfortunately I can not go to the SXS, but would be delighted if someone would be willing to measure the bores of some of the wonderful guns that will be there.

Yours,

Richard

I attach the rest of the files. I could have included all of these pages as a single .pdf file, but did not discover until I had created them that the site allows .odf files up to 17 meg in size. I was trying to keep everything less than 1 meg. The last page (Pg. 141) in The Shotgun Book by Purdey and Purdey is the most important as it sets forth the broad requirements for Proof testing in accordance with bore size.

Richard

Forrest,

I have published the measurements of the dimensions of a number of the early Brass and Paper shells in my DGJ articles on 11-gauge Parkers (Winter, 2008 and Spring, 2009). I will be happy to make them into .pdf files and upload them if you would like.

Richard

Richard,

I'll be more than happy to measure bores at the Southern. We can compile a list and forward to you. Unfortunately, my Stan Baker micrometers don't measure 12ga chambers but my digital calipers may be good enough. I'll have them at the Parker Tent for everyone to use.

Chuck Bishop

Perfect 12-Bore Dimensions of Parker Prototype
 

Chuck,

That is great. How deep can you get into the bores? I am still hoping to learn more about full length tapered bores, so if they can reach 15" you could measure the full length of most barrels.

By the way, I forgot to post a couple of other things that had led me to my conclusions about early Parker 11-gauge guns. It had been suggested that Charles Parker just may not have cared much about precise bore dimensions. Then in June 1996, I had the wonderful opportunity to measure the bores and chambers of the Prototype Parker S/N 06 at the Meriden Historical Society. It was originally thought to be S/N 90 and in 14-gauge. Charlie Hezog and the late "Big Iron" Ed Kapelski helped me to measure the gun and fing that it was chambered for short (2") Maynard shells and with rlief chokes in the last 4" at the muzzle. My measurements revealed that both bores were perfect 12-bore dimensions (0.729") over almost the entire length of both barrels (Attached). This precision 1866 barrel boring amazed my friends in the NASA/MSFC machine shop. The Prototype was chambered for Maynard shells and it had an abrupt lip at the end of the chambers so that once it had been fired and the hulls were still in place it could be used as a muzzle loader. This was fine, since the caps were not in the shells, but fitted on percussion nipples on the top of the receiver. An 1866 or 1867 Ad in the Webb N. E Railway and Manufacturer's Statistical Gazeteer described this type of gun. The Meriden T-Latch Parker with Percussion Nipples may be the only one of its kind still in existence, and I doubt that they made very many to start with. I attach the Webb Ad as there may be new members of the PGCA that have never seen it, but I think it was probably published in TPS.

Richard

Outstanding! I think I have those issues, I will be sure to check at first opportunity tonight. If not, I would definitely love to see your articles.

Richard,

The mic will reach 18 1/2".

Chuck,

That is fantastic. Does it have sufficient range to do chambers and forcing cones as well?

I am very much interested in finding out the serial number range of the full length tapered bores as well. Do you have the DGJ issues. If not I will post them as they describe the saga I have been through since my Grandfather won an old Parker in a Poker game in 1921. the mysteries of this old wall hanger continue to help us learn more about the Parker secrets.

Richard

No, it's a Stan Baker set so there are 3 separate shafts that will read 12,16,20,28,and .410. I don't know why 10ga wasn't included.

The largest head will only read to .770 so checking the chamber and getting an accurate read on forcing cones isn't possible. I use my digital micrometer for chamber dia. which seems to work well right at the mouth of the chamber.

Please post the DGJ article.

Bore Size
 

Chuck, Forrest, and all:

My 10 ga measurements are as yours, but are on the edge of resolution on my Stan Baker gauge so I did not use them in the article. After a little my searching through TPS, I conclude that the combination of .810 chamber and .750 bore would accomodate either paper or brass shells, making it possible to distribute and stock Parker guns in American commerce.

Parker order book entries begin with steel type gauge length - ie Dam 12/30. It would be very difficult to miss an 11, if it existed in the serialization data.

Best, Austin

Austin,

That is just the problem. Bill Furnish, George Flaim, Charlie Herzog and I have all found true 11-gauge Parkers that were entered in the Stock books as 12- or 10-gauge guns. And these are early (pre-1875) guns chambered 0.825" to 0.830" which is not suitable for either 12A brass or 12paper or 10A brass or 10 paper shells. We have also found perfect 12-bore Parker (0.729") barrels chambered for 11B brass shells. More measurements are needed. I have suggested to Charlie, that I could send my Bore and Chamber gauges to him, but it may be getting too late for him to get them to the SXS.

Maybe you could give me a call at 256-337-4082 as I would like to discuss this in more detail. I talk faster than I type (still only use one finger).

Chuck, I wil post my DGJ articles that contain the information on the early shotshell dimensions and my wanderings in the Parker 11-gauge briar patch as soon as I get them converted to .pdf files (hopefully later today.)

Thanks,

Richard

Richard

Richard if you are ever up my way, "30mi south of Roanoke VA." at milepost 163 Blue Ridge Parkway, You could check some of my early guns I have no gauges to check with! Some of interest. Ser # 97-12B?, Ser# 258-12ga? Ser# 1147 14ga, Ser# 1590-12ga? Ser# 2349-12ga? Ser# 3307-12ga? Ser# 3416 2brl set 12ga? Ser#3834 11ga, with letter, Ser# 4412-12ga? As stated some have letters but not many, I am giving these serial numbers from memory but believe them correct without checking. Best Gary

Gary,

I was delighted to hear about your Early Parker. I may have data on some of those guns if they belonged to Bill furnish in the early to mid 1990's. Some of those T-Latch numbers sound vaguely familiar.

I would like to talk with you. I will try to give you a call later this evening

DGJ Article on 11-Gauge Hammer Guns Part I
 

Chuck,

I am posting Part I of the DGJ Article. The Table with data on the Dimensions of Early Shells is on Pg. 72. I also post images of these early 11-gauge shells. As you can see, the head diameters (0.825") are much to large for a fireformed 12A or 12 Paper shell (0.810") but appropriate for a true 11-ga chamber. These shells are extremely rare, and to my knowledge no one has any shells with dimensions like these with a Parker Headstamp or designated "11A". If anyone does, it would be wonderful to hear from them.


Yours,

Richard

Poker Parker, Dog and Game Scene
 

Forrest,

I attach a picture of one of the Game Scene Ovals of #3561 with a Pointer and Setter on point and back as a Timber Doodle flushes from the rich Marsh Land of Southern Louisiana, where Aristide Monnot had his vast Sugar Plantations and Refineries. I also attach a photo of me with my GrandDads old Parker and Bonnie my faithful hunting dog. The ducks were brought down with 12-gauge shells in the sleeved chambers of the 11-bore Parker (unfortunately not a double) and retrieved by Bonnie. She died at the age of 15 shortly after this picture was taken. Bonnie was fast as the wind and had many NSTRA and NAVHDA awards. She retrieved many a dove, quail, grouse, woodcock, geese, duck and shoes (she kept bringing them from my closet until she was given a reward). That girl had a sense of humor like no dog I have ever known. There will never be another one like her and she will always be missed. But you have to move on and Miriam and I will pick up my new (49 day old) Brittany Pup tommorrow. I am taking an 11-gauge Parker along to make sure the pup I choose will have no fear of the sound of thunder and love the smell of gunpowder.


Yours,

Richard