Here's a question for you Mr. Julia. If I put a gun into your auction and my reserve is say $6000 and it hammers for $4000 do I get my gun back as it didn't make the reserve i wanted for it?

Mr. Julia and family are currently out of the country for a short time. Upon his return he will respond to the pending questions.

Answers to Posted Questions by PGCA Members
 

Dear C.O.B. and Phil C.,

Since both of your questions deal with reserves I thought I would answer them in one response. First of all, thank you very much for these terrific questions. There has been a little bit of misinformation on reserves and some incorrect speculation about how they are handled at my auction and thus I am grateful for an opportunity to clear them up.

Many but not all people request reserves when they are consigning valuable guns. Reserves, when used, can have a critical impact upon the success of the sale. It of course provides protection but if the seller wishes too high a reserve, it will generally assure that the gun won’t sell. As I’ve indicated in my previous letter, reserves at my auction are usually below low estimate, and in the very worst case, at low estimate. Therefore the reserve impacts upon the estimate. High reserves mean a high estimate.

There are always at least two reasons a buyer bids on a gun at auction, a) It is something he wants; and b) the estimate is reasonable and realistic and thus he feels he might have a chance at buying it. Therefore a high reserve will almost always disparage bidders and those usually result in no bidders at all. Whereas an enticing and conservation estimate will almost always drive the interested party to participate. Success at auction is based on a simple formula which goes like this: The greatest participation = the greatest competition which = the greatest rate of return. Therefore, (1) if the estimate in the catalog is rather conservative, a number of people will participate all with the same idea in mind, “I’m going to own that gun”, and this is the formula for success. Low reserves and highly conservative estimates usually equal the greatest participation and strong and sometimes spectacular sale prices. (2) Less than enticing reserves result in minimal participation and rarely is there a frenzied participation and aggressiveness that occurs in scenario number 1, and therefore if the gun sells, frequently it is right at the reserve or a little above. (3) High and aggressive reserves will almost assure that few or no bidders participate at all. Thus a no sale and you get the gun back.

When a client requests a reserve we always try to encourage them to go with the most conservative reserve possible because we know the likelihood of a sale and the potential of the gun selling for
a lot of money is dependent upon a conservative and realistic reserve and thus estimate. Based on our recent past experiences with similar guns we will usually suggest (if asked) what an appropriate reserve should be. If the client is satisfied with our suggested reserve and should the gun not sell at auction, there is no cost to the seller except for the 1% insurance charge (the gun had to be insured whether it sold or not) and whatever the packaging and shipping charges are for return (unless he picked it up himself). If a client’s required reserve figure is far above where we think it will sell, we generally decline the consignment. Obviously anything we offer costs us a fair amount of money to process and promote, and if we’re certain it is not going to sell, everyone loses.

Sometimes if a client wants what we consider to be a high reserve and is insistent on including the gun in an auction, in some cases we might acquiesce but tell them that if we offer it and it does not sell that there will be a special buy in fee that they will have to pay us if it doesn’t sell. (This rarely happens.)

On very rare occasions a client might not request any reserve at all or agree to an appropriate reserve, but later after we have paid to photograph it, catalog it, print it in the catalog, promote it and insure it, etc., for some reason might request a much higher reserve. Technically the terms of our original agreement are already outlined in the contract and can’t be changed after the item is consigned, however in such case, there is a clause in our contract that allows for this but it also stipulates a special buy in fee will be charged if it does not sell. Obviously if the reserve is raised, we would also have to change the estimate to reflect the new, higher reserve. Since the catalog is already printed, it’s too late to put it in the catalog so we make a note online, make an addenda on our online catalog explaining that there is a new, higher estimate, we put a note beside the gun on display with the same information, we put a note in the catalog to remind the auctioneer to announce it at the time of sale, and we will contact anyone who set up for an absentee bid on this gun and alert them of the change also. (All of this is very rare.)

When a gun has a reserve, it stipulates in our contract that the reserve will be confidential and thus we will not divulge the exact reserve to anyone (however we will admit if asked that there is a reserve on that lot). “If for any reason the item is sold less than the reserve, the auctioneer will pay the consignor an amount equal to what the consignor would have received (on a net basis after deductions of commissions and all costs, fees or charges).” Therefore, if you consign a gun with a reserve of $6,000 and by accident the reserve is not executed and the gun is subsequently sold at $4,000, you will be paid the same monies you would have had the gun sold for $6,000, so our contract guarantees and protects you along those lines. Rarely does this happen and so if a gun was reserved at $6,000 and the bidding only got up to $4,000, our clerk, executing the reserve bids, would “buy your gun in” and the gun would be a no sale and returned to you as outlined above.

In regards to the return of a modern shotgun which has been offered at auction. As a licensed federal firearms dealer we are required to specifically follow federal law and your home state mandates. By federal law if we ship the gun, it must be delivered to an FFL holder. If you do not have an FFL, it is a simple procedure to make arrangements with a nearby gun dealer who will receive the gun for you, log it into his books, then log it out to you. This procedure must be followed by all federally licensed firearm dealers – there are no exceptions. If you drive to our facilities to pick up your modern shotgun, and if you are not an FFL holder, you will need to fill out Form 4473 (the same form you would have had to fill out at the gun dealer’s had you picked it up at the gun dealer’s), and then by law we are required to comply with background check requirements and then you are free to take the gun with you.

I think I have covered all of your questions. I am sorry for such a lengthy reply but I’ve tried to make sure to cover everything so hopefully there are no misunderstandings. Thanks again for your great questions.

Sincerely,

Jim Julia

Mr. Julia

Great explaination - I am certain many of us have learned a bit from it.

So what your saying is if I put a gun into your auction at a $6000 reserve and it sells for $4000 I'll get the gun back as the clerk would "Buy in" for the reserve and therefor there would be no sale.

If I understand this correctly and this is supposed to be how it works I know of one instance where that didn't happen and the gun wasn't returned to the owner. It didn't meet the reserve he set and was subsequently sold on the side to another person. He did not get his gun back.

If I read this correctly, the gun must have been sold to someone other than the the person bidding for Jim while bids are below the reserve. So, if he makes a mistake and sells the gun for less than the reserve to Joe Average bidder, Jim will make up the difference to insure the consignor gets the reserve amount. At least that is the way I read it?

I think the long and the short of all this wordsmithing is if your gun goes to auction you arn't ever going to see it again.

It looks to me like you will either receive at least your reserve or the gun back. If you are worried about it selling low, just make sure your reserve is high enough.
Seems pretty simple to me.
My question is what if the bidder stiffs? Let's say you reserve your gun at 5K, it sells for 7K ....but the buyer stiffs. Do you have the option of getting the gun back or do you just get the reserve payment of 5K less fees?

I'll hold my thoughts for one more day to see if Mr Julia responds to my response (I sent the email on Wed night) to his email to me which did not answer my only question that I had for him. We'll see.....

As I previously stated in my explanation regarding reserves, reserved guns are handled just exactly the way I stated in my letter, and all sold the way that Bindlestiff interpreted. The gun either sells at auction, and in such case, the owner is paid the full proceeds less commission and expense charges. If by accident, the gun is sold for less than the reserve, then I have to make up the difference, and I do. If the gun is bought in by the clerk in executing the reserve, and therefore does not sell, it is not my gun, it is still the consignors, and the gun is returned to the consignor unless the consignor makes other arrangements with us. We do not arbitrarily sell anyone’s guns to anyone. That is a fact, and there are no exceptions. If C.O.B. would please e-mail me at my e-mail address, and give me the details on the issue he has been referring to, I would be glad to investigate it, but there is no situation in which I or my staff ever sold a client’s gun after the auction on the side and refused to give it back to them.

Well I got the final letter from Mr Julia, and no he will not take responsibilty for his gun manager mismeasuring the wall thickness of the D grade that I purchased. He pointed out his 45 day warranty (which he says is the best in the industry) and said since I found out about this problem in June (auction was March) I was outside the window and there was nothing he could do. As I pointed out to him, I did not ask for a refund but I did ask for my buyer's premium back since it was his employee that made the mistake, which I felt was fair as I was just asking for the profit that he made off of me (I have already too much money invested in this gun since I have had another set of barrels fitted to it). He said no again, not sure why he asked me to take the time to email him again to "discuss" when he already knew what he was going to say to me. So I guess I was wrong in believing he wanted to right this wrong as it was his employee that made the mistake. So for those of you that wanted to know the final outcome there it is. Eric

Quite an upstanding business man our Mr. Julia, really somebody we should be proud to have in the auction industry and as a contributing member of the forum. *clears throat*

DLH

Jim Julia is in the business of selling someone else's guns, etc. He has published his policies for anyone to read. As stated he does have a return privilege of 45 days. I have bought a number of guns thru his auction and although a few were lacking in minor respects the majority were as advertised or better. I have never returned one to him or any other auction house. "CAVEAT EMPTOR"

Best Regards, George

George if this happened to you personally you'd be squalling like a mashed cat and we all know it. Eric Eis is one of the most respected members of this forum, I'm completely on his side in this. I can't imagine why you feel you've got to jump in and carry Julia's water for him. He doesn't even know who you are and would treat you the same way he treated Eric.

DLH

I have no “dog” in this matter (or cat, bird or any other critter), and should probably just keep this to myself, but here goes. I think a large company like James Julia, who prides themselves in running a fair and honest business, and certainly a profitable one, should not “hide” behind a 45 day return rule when it comes to one of their own employees making a mistake such as this one did. They should make this matter right with a smile on their face, Period.
:)

i think you said it rite... charlie

So should Mr Julia's "not-as-described return time" be 45 days, 60 day, 90 days, one year, his lifetime or the buyer's lifetime? If he declines to go the extra mile beyond his stated terms and conditions I don't think he should be criticized here for refusing to return the premium. Perhaps he holds the seller's money until the 45 days are up. I dont know.

I think 45 days is long enough to thoroughly check out a gun, including wall thicknesses. Checking wall thickness is one of the first things I do when I have a gun in for inspection. A very good wall thickness gauge can be had for $200.

Best,

Mike

I think the whole point here is that you shouldn't have to double check wall thickness on a gun after getting the word from someone who holds themselves up as high as Julia's does.

Should you? Yes

Should you have to? No

Mr. Julia please check your PM's.

In My Humble Opinion I think if anyone else has something to say to Mr. Julia It should be done by PM or personal email. He has provided us with more than enough information on how he conducts his business... even more than we have asked for. I believe he has answered our questions to the best of his abilities without getting into the minute details of each transaction that a few of us might wish to discuss with him in private without "airing the dirty laundry" of some less than satisfied people here. It would do a disservice to all involved to delve any deeper into particular issues one might have with a certain transaction. I think we all have a pretty good idea of the feelings and opinions of some of the participants of this thread But I think any further discussion with Mr. Julia or with each other on this issue should be done off-line - as I said, PM or personal email... otherwise we're :dh: and at risk of having this thread blocked and I think there is too much good information here than to have it disappear. :cool:

P.S. I have not contacted Mr. Julia about my concerns and may not... "water over the dam" at this point with me.

Destry: It seems that I'm not the first one to "jump in & carry water" as you succintly put it. On the contrary, I do know Jim Julia and several members of his staff and as far as I'm concerned he is as straight as an arrow. JMHO

Best Regards, George:bigbye:

If he was straight as an arrow he'd have given Eric back his $750 buyers premium. That's the amount of money we're talking about. Should be a drop in the bucket to a person like our Mr. Julia. He must really be hurting for cash, if he's let this all go this far......


DLH

Amarillo Mike has one of the most pertinent points on this thread, except that he is not up to date on perfectly acceptable wall thickness gauges. You can have a Manson gauge from Brownells for about half what Mike states. By the time most collectors amass a half million dollar shotgun collection, they have had a hundred dollar Manson gauge for many years. Just my inner soft spot talking.

Bill,

Did you read what I had to say? When you buy from somebody like Julia, there shouldn't be mistakes like this. If you buy a gun from them and ask for wall thickness what they tell you should be the gospel. Do you disagree?


DLH

Bill, I have a wall thickness gauge now, bought it in June of that year (end of March was the auction) that's how I found out about the problem. Like Destry say's I believed them, my mistake, now I have the gauge, just a little late....

Destry, sorry, these guys have no idea what they are selling and don't want to know. You have to be the inspector. A good time to do that is the day you open the box. This is no disrespect to the auction houses to say that they have no idea what they are sell, but "They have no idea what they are selling."

--------------------------------
-------------------------------

With reference to the above statements, it would be interesting to know what actually took place with the gun Robin and Dean have mentioned here... And, if they "simply give you the reserve as payment (less the seller's premium) and they keep the gun.",,,, does the gun then become the company-owned property of James D. Julia, which he can then sell privately or run through another auction at a later date?... Is this a common occurrence?...

CSL
__________________________
.

PM sent Chris.

Murphy,

I think you are correct but the perception is that Julia's is one of the premier gun auctions in this country if not the world! Buying a Parker from Julia's would be as if I were buying it from you. If you told me that the gun has MBWT of .0xx" I'd expect it to be true based on your reputation as a Parker expert. Please accept this as a compliment to your Parker expertise.

There are of course other persons and companies that I would not trust to provide accurate information. Nor would I ever lower myself to buy anything from them. Why should I contribute to their vacations?

This thread is enlightening because at least three respected members of our Parker community have questioned the business dealings of this auction house based on their negative experiances. Although legally the auction house did nothing wrong, my perception of this business entity has been lowered substantially.

I have reached the point in my gun collecting that I am ready to accumulate 5-figure firearms. Three seperate strikes against persons whom I respect indicates that I should look elsewhere.

Perhaps an in-depth investigative artical on "Understanding Gun Auctions" is called for.

"non melior amicus, non nequior hostis"

Mark

so - here as in all cases (and sadly it seems all businesses)

Caveat emptor


in the end - its your money, spend wisely

Yup, Rich. Good dealers sell bad guns and bad dealers sell good guns. You are the inspector. I will deal with almost anyone who occasionally has a good gun.

And if I am successful in buying it I will look at it as soon as it arrives and if there is no substantial dificiency that was not disclosed in the description I will keep it and if there is I will contact the auction company immediately and let them know my concerns. That "puts the ball in their court" and it is then up to them to make it right whether that means returning it for full refund or lowering the price to compensate for the dificiencyJMHO.

George

george what if they want do anything to correct there mistake you found after contacting them... charlie

Charlie: If I informed them shortly (within a week or two) after receiving the gun that it was misrepresented by them (either intentionally or unintentionelly) and they refused to make it right, I would seek legal recourse if the amount warrented that. If not, I would spread the word, like on this & other forums, of the exact details of what happened which might cost them a whole lot more in the long run than it would have if they had done the right thing in the beginning. That does not seem to be the case here. It sounds like too much time elapsed between the purchase & delivery and the difficiencies being brought to their attention. On the other hand, it does seem that it would be in Julia's best interest to offer a reasonable offer to settle and retain the goodwill of their customer. however, none of us know all the particulars of the issues involved between the two parties but them.

Best Regards, George

Hello. I’ve been away for some time and am in my office today but will be gone tomorrow for a matter of days to do a decoy auction in the Midwest. Upon arriving at my office a friend alerted me to the continued discussions on the forum in regards to my company.

When I responded to Mr. Eis’s complaint, it was suggested to “discuss this off forum either by PM or phone”. I assumed that it meant just that, but I see that after we discussed this, Mr. Eis then shared online his personal interpretation of what transpired. So that everyone can know exactly what transpired, I have included the complete thread here online. I would have gladly done so originally in an attempt to be transparent, but I misunderstood the meaning of dealing with it offline.

After learning Mr. Eis’s name, I wrote him a letter which is attached here, requesting the details about his complaint. Since I had no personal recollection I indicated that if he would give me the details I would research it and that “I do wish to get to the bottom of this”. I did not promise I would make any adjustment, however, if in fact after my investigation had I discovered my company had done something totally wrong, there would have been some type of an adjustment, but as a result of my investigation, that is not the case.

In regards to guarantees, if I’m not mistaken in the gun world frequently when one buys a gun through the mail, the seller often gives an inspection period to the buyer to determine if the gun is as it was touted to be. I sometimes see an inspection period of 24 hours; I sometimes see inspection periods of 7 days, but I see no one that provides an inspection period of 45 days. My company, however, does. I don’t know of any auction firm that in writing offers a warrantee regarding guns (I may be wrong), but we do. We specifically offer a warrantee and it is good for 45 days, but the warrantee is very clear. While I have a responsibility to cancel a sale or make an adjustment to the client (if I can), it is my responsibility provided that they notify me within the time period. However, the client also has a responsibility and that responsibility is to review the gun when they get it and do their due diligence to make sure that there are no problems.

Because this purported error took place is not a matter of my being honest or dishonest. We all make mistakes and one of the things that is implied in the conditions of my sale and also announced verbally at the beginning of an auction is that I am fully aware that regardless of how many experts I use to review things, there are bound to be some mistakes. If it is a mistake; it is a mistake; it is not an intention on our behalf; that’s not the way we do business. I also share through the conditions of my sale and also through verbal announcements that we do a number of things to protect our customers, and all of those things we do, we hold ourselves to be responsible for, but the buyer in turn, also have a responsibility. We know that with every catalog we print there are going to be a handful of mistakes in their for sure, and to protect our customers we supply a limited guarantee, good for 45 days, it is a customer’s responsibility to review the things during that time period or, request an extension of time to finish their examination is necessary. If you don’t do your due diligence and you wait for some long period afterwards to finally examine the item and then discover a problem with it, it is too late. It would make no difference whether this was a truck, a computer or a television set. Most things tend to have warrantee periods but if the complaint comes long after the warrantee period has expired, there’s not much anyone can do, and that’s essentially the bottom line here.

The gun in question was described in my catalog as having a left barrel with .019 thousandths of an inch; the right barrel being .017 thousandths of an inch (not .015??). The gun in question was Lot 1348 in our Spring 2009 auction. So that there can be no misunderstanding, the catalog description is of course in print in any of your catalogs and you can refer to it to make sure that I am accurate. If you don’t have a catalog, you can simply go online to our website, go to that specific auction, and go to that specific lot number and you will see the catalog description that was printed with the catalog when it was produced. As I said in my letter, I can’t contradict Mr. Eis regarding what thickness Bill Taylor could have told him or anything else that they may have had for conversations. Bill no longer works for me, and I have no records of anything along these lines. All I know is that if I were buying this gun and the catalog stated the barrels were .017 and .019 and later someone told me the barrels were .030 instead, the first thing I would do when I got the gun was check it. I only wish that Mr. Eis did what he was responsible for because if he had done his due diligence in time, and had I been notified in time I would have simply canceled the sale of the gun and given him his money back (or made an adjustment if possible at that time). The issue here is that he didn’t.

I personally consider it unfair when someone holds me responsible for something that was a lack of their own due diligence. Mr. Eis essentially expected me to change the conditions of my sale because he had neglected to do what he was responsible to do in the appropriate time period. If I or any other business regularly changes the conditions of their sale to suit all buyers’ demands, even when they are in the wrong, eventually the business will go broke. I try to be consistently fair with everyone. I feel that if I do something for one client, I must do it for all others, and if I were to change the conditions of my sale simply to suit Mr. Eis’s desires, it would only be fair that I do that for everyone and I can’t. Regardless of the circumstances I am sorry that Mr. Eis has a problem with us, but the specific conditions of my sale had offered him more than adequate protection to save him from mistakes. Forty-five days is a long time. Again, I repeat, under no circumstances did I or anyone else on my staff tell Mr. Eis to “go pound sand” nor have I “trashed” him, as he has purported.

Sincerely,

Jim Julia

It's interesting to know that Mr. Julia considers his good name worth less than $750. Should be a pittance to a man of his supposed means.

And again I'll say, when you buy a gun from someone like Julia's you shouldn't have to check the wall thickness when you asked their staff in advance what it was. These are mistakes that shouldn't be made. If they are made, they should be put right quietly and quickly when the issue comes to light no matter the time frame.

This all just lets you know who not to buy from boys.


Destry L. Hoffard

Jim thanks for your clear explanation. I know JR Larue and Wes Dillon but have not met you. Had long talks with your people at the NRA convention. I get your catalogs and will continue to look for something I can't do without. Thanks for your support of the PGCA.

I am a bit confused about the gun in question. Mr. Julia kindly gave us the catalog reference to the gun in question, if #1348 in the Spring 2009 catalog is the gun in question. Eric says the claim was made that the MBWT was claimed to be .030 and it turned out to be .015. The catalog states .017 and .019. Was the catalog wording changed? Did Eric call Julia's to get a confirmation of the .017 and .019? Why would anyone even think about buying such a gun in the first place? If Eric was told on the phone that the thickness was .030, why was the catalog description not changed? Maybe Eric will answer this question so we don't have to reread eight pages of forum text. This is not a gun most of us would give a second look, especially when it was described as having been redone and with bad barrels and a $6000 to $8000 estimate. Where did those numbers come from? I'm sure Mr. Julia's staff figured they had a sure "No Sale".

Bill, I will say one more time and then let's move on. The catalog stated, .017 on the gun I purchased and the other two 16's were stated thin also, so I called Bill and said I thought that was strange that all three were thin. He asked which one I was interested in and I told him. He called me back later that day and said the catalog was wrong and he personally had measured it and it was .030. When I got the Hosford gauge in June and measured it it was .015 in the middle of the barrel by the rib.

Mr. Julia I didn't post after our emails (not sure why you felt you needed to post the emails (or the ethics of that) and no I didn't look at the pdf file so I don't know if they are the originals or editted) so I don't know what you are talking about. Also I never have said in any post that you "Trashed" me, but I would say this last post that you made might fit into that catagory....! I guess you had a Bad Day on Friday and felt that you needed to vent.... so be it and hopefully this next week will be better for you.

Bruce, I don't remember the Julia Company supporting the PGCA like Puglisi's or Tony at CSMC so I am not sure what you are talking about but I am sure they will continue sending you their catalogs...

The Hosford gauge take some understanding. Are you sure of those measurements. I find it hard to believe that a gun with .665 bores would be so thin. I have never seen the outside of a set of "nice" barrels struck to a MBWT of .017. I have a suspicion that this gun is not as bad as it seems.