why mike: why would i suggest such a thing of you and others, particularly with your sterling reputation for gentlemanly and rational posts? all i was trying to do was to remind you guys that this is forum about parker shotguns and nothing else.....

uh day...have a nice day...

We disagree about the "nothing else" part.

Best,

Mike

edgar: you lost me long the way here...what i got from your posts is that your experience and knowledge is some what recent, meaning post ww2...what worries me is when a guy goes and messes with a factory heat treated shot gun receiver that was made prior to ww2 or even earlier...according to old ed, the metallurgy of that receiver is often unknown, as is the original heat treating and tempering specs...therefore, common sense says "don mess wid hit".

No, Ed you were trying to sell shotguns, you weren't talking about Parkers, you were defending what either you or Ed Landers (or one in the same) do to these guns Torch jobs on these vintage guns is wrong even you must know it....it is wrong (forget about making a buck):banghead: Ok JD or Jeff delete me.....Eric

Yeah Ed, I am just a youngster. Even though I am a 5th generation foundryman, I only worked in the business for 35 years, and never picked anything up from my dad, or his dad. You're right though, I did loose you 'long the way'. I didn't need to be there to know how metals were made and heat treated; it's pretty well documented, and, wow, even still discussed. It boils down to your lack of my familiarity with the topic that leads you to think what's common sense. It's very easy for someone skilled in the business to have the exact chemistry analyzed and re-heat treat a part to equal, if not superior physical properties

mike: well, the fact of the matter is: this thread was started by some guy who thought you guys would like to know that there was some guy who just listed his parker shotgun collection for sale on gunsamerica...in fact, that second some guy was me...and i have listed about a dozen parkers for sale on gunsamerica from three different collections...you may not be aware, but most of the guns i sell are on consignment...many of the consignments i get are from estates and from folks who are having problems and need money...so, please do keep in mind that when you come here to grind your axe, that it is just not me involved...there is more going on here than what is in your somewhat narrow mind.

edgar: seems like you took offense at my last post...if so, please do accept my apology...it is a privilege for someone like me to be able to communicate with some one like you. most of my experience has been of a non technical nature. you on the other hand seem to certainly know the foundry business...

have you ever reheat treated a shotgun receiver?

I've driven in Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Arizona, California, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Alaska, Hawaii and Tenessee.

I've never driven in New Hampshire. Ed would you argue that I am not qualified to drive in New Hampshire since I haven't driven there before. Surely not.

Best,

Mike

No offense taken Ed.
There used to be a pretty good commercial steel foundry in Claremont, Joy Manufacturing owned it.
No, I have never done any shotgun heat treating. I'm getting ready to, but plan on giving it to a pro. I have done a few Winchester lever gun parts, but since retiring, don't have access to a good Thermoline anymore. I made Colt's heat treat boxes, and poured myself an extra one (CA6-NM, Martinsitic Stainless steel)

Mike, if you've driven in AK and CO, you're qualified to drive in NH. It's all up and down there too.

Come on guy's! This is getting to sound like another episode of As the world turns, no soaps here just great Parker guns!

edgar: for what it is worth, old ed is slowly assembling a kit of shotgun parts for me. the kit was made up from left over parts from the now defunct ithaca nid repro effort in the 90's. anyway, non of the parts have been hardened. so once the gun is assembled, he plans to send it to turnbull for hardening...based upon that recommendation, you might wana contact turnbull regarding your metal hardening needs. good luck and a pleasure learning from you.

mike: with your experience, you would probably be ok driving here in nh. however, should you come this way, think twice about driving anywhere within 50 miles of boston...they are nuts down there!

Thanks Ed. I'm not a huge fan of Turnbull's colors, but that's just me. From what I've seen, and based on experiences posted by others, I'm a little more inclined to have Brad Batcheldor do one I have in mind. Have you compared examples of each guy's work?

I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me.

edgar: turnbull has been around for a long time and does fine work. batchelder is a relative new guy. from what i have read and pictures i have seen, he also does fine work.

now the bad news. both guys charge big bucks for their work. so, who ever does your work, get a receipt, so you will have a chance of getting your money back come resale time. if i had to choose, i would go with turnbull. and only because he is so well known and respected among high end gun guys.

Which begs the question; If it was 'minty' why would you be thinking re-hardening the receiver to begin with?

king: good advise... as for foxes in particular, i am reminded of a c grade i saw years ago. it was a beautiful gun, exhibiting a complete professional refinish, including wonderful bone charcoal case colors...however, upon close inspection of the receiver, i noticed a hairline crack in the metal at its weakest point, which was at the origin of the 90 degree angle where the water table meets the angle of the breech...that, and some other fine guns that i have seen that have been ruined by rehardening the receiver is what turned me off on the idea of rehardened any shotgun receiver, regardless of the method utilized.

ed you are the only one that I have ever heard of that has seen a problem caused by bone charcoal case coloring. Out of all the thousands of posts I have read over on the Doublegun, here, 16ga.com, the shooting sportsman. And there were recent extensive discussions on the Dolublegun about this subject. You are the only one and you have seen at least three.


Pretty amazing statistic.


Best,


Mike

well mike, think about it...what do you do with a shotgun with a ruined receiver?

you part it out...and destroy the evidence of your failure.

if you looked on gunsamerica, you will notice that i have several parkers for sale with two sets of barrels, usually with one set of barrels numbered to the receiver and the other set numbered to a different receiver...ever wonder where all those extra sets of barrels came from?

Depending on the nature of the reason you're calling it ruined, you can V it out and TIG it back up.

Naive, Ed. A scrupulous person would save it.

The answer to that question should be obvious to an old time gun dealer like you Ed. All the past bad press that damascus and twist barrels got, meant those who drank that cool-aid had them re barreled, either at Parker, or, later on, by most good gunsmiths. Certainly if you're implying all those barrels came from guns whose frames were ruined by re-heat treatment, you are struggling to make your case.

Why would one simply assume that a hairline crack(s) in a frame was the result of the case coloring process? Perhaps it was case colored in an effort to conceal an existing fracture. Perhaps it cracked due to some form of abuse or preexisting defect in the steel. Without a lot more evidence to prove a causal connection, it would seem reckless to leap to that conclusion....much like concluding that a burst damascus barrel was the result of an inherent inferiority in damascus, without exploring whether it was actually caused by a barrel obstruction, overloaded shell, deep dent, etc.

edgar: over the years, my customers and myself have obtained parker barrel sets from a variety of different sources. those barrel sets include those made of twist, damascus and fluid steel. logic says some of those barrel sets came from guns with ruined receivers...

as for rebarrelling parkers, the common practice was/is to cut off the old barrels and then sleeve the existing breeches with new fluid steel tubes; and then relay the original ribs.

as for tig welding, two reasons it was not done? tig welding is a relatively new process? and why put money into welding a damaged receiver when it will likely crack again in a different place?

maybe we should just follow mike's lead and pretend there is no problem with rehardening old shotgun receivers and therefore, myself and others are just making it all up? but then, didn't king just tell us the following:

"I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me. "

so justin, us anti re case hardening quys are just makin it all up? have you ever re case hardened a shotgun receiver? if so, have you ever had one go bad? have you ever seen one that went bad?

edgarspencer: it was a 1926 Fox Sterlingworth of benchmark condition by which all all others could be measured. John Mann got it for me. All original, flawless.

During a capsize a week before Christmas 200 metres from shore an hour before daylight in a driving snowstorm, it went six fathoms to the bottom in the North Atlantic.

Nick Makinson restored it to all its glory after immersion in its plastic case for six months. He advised against colouring because risk outweighed benefits.

Anyone who has seen his work would take his word for it.

Ed,
Others on this site might accuse you of "just makin it up", but I did not. I simply suggested that you (and others) might be leaping to unwarranted conclusions without considering all the potential variables. And yes, I have case color hardened several vintage frames without any problems with warpage or cracking, which is not to suggest that it could never happen. Every restorative procedure has its inherent risks, and color case hardening is no exception. I would say though, that if one is going to undertake case color restoration, it should be done right; and that means bone charcoal case color hardening. A vintage gun is far better off left rusty and pitted than ruined by the lazy profiteers' torch. But that's just my opinion, of course.

You guys must not read DoubleGunShop much. If you keep talking to Ed this thread will just go on and one and on and on and on and on and on.......

hunter: you may be happy to know that i am about at the end of the line with this one.

justin: lets you and i and mike all agree:

"best not to reharden. best not to recolor."

Just what kind of nonsense are you referring to? David

Tig welding (GTAW, Gas Tungsten Arc Welding) is not a new process, and was developed in the 1940s. Good gas welding was pretty much made obsolete by GTAW, but how many airframes were gas welded prior to that? I daresay, in the hands of a good gas welder with an AB torch and proper filler material, most gun frame cracks can be repaired and re-heat treated.
Cracks most often propagate from a localized stress riser. A crack which shows up after case hardening likely existed prior to that heat treatment, but opened up on heat treatment. Secondary cracking from welding usually shows up in the HAZ (heat affected zone, between base and weld metal), and is directly related to either impurities, or inclusions in the weld (gas, slag) or improper post-weld heat treatment.
Welding is a normal process in manufacturing of steel and steel products. Entire departments in companies like Electric Boat, are devoted to developing weld procedures and procedure qualifications. If it were such a risky process, I doubt we would build submarines from rolled and welded rings, 44' (Ohio Class Trident) in diameter, and welded together to make a tube called the pressure hull.
If my customers were as skeptical of welding as you seem to be, I sincerely doubt I would have been able to pawn off $10 million worth of castings a year.
I'll buy every cracked high grade Parker frame you can lay your hands on. You can throw in all those cracked Winchester lever frames while you're at it.
Oh My god, you mean they weld new barrels into old breech blocks? Don't they blow up?:shock:

King, that must have been pretty traumatic, if not outright scary. If you want to pursue re-caseing your Fox, I'd suggest you speak to some of the other respected gunsmiths who are doing this process. I wouldn't roll over on only one person's say-so.
Destry, If I weren't house-bound, I would have tired of this a long time ago also, and as it is, getting a little weary swatting a myths and urban legends. If I have to say so myself, I have far too many years working with steels and most of their subsequent manufacturing operations to know what a qualified person is able to do. I also know what can happen in the hands of some who are not so qualified. As is usually the case, the failures get lots of press, but the men who know their stuff just keep doing what they're doing, quite simply, because success breeds more business.

I'd like to thank Edger for sharing his knowledge. I wouldn't be afraid to send any work to Brad - and he's NOT a newbee. Myself, and two friends have probably had 15 to 20 Parkers and Remingtons worked on by him and have always been pleased. If something wasn't right the first time, he corrected it at no charge. This rarely happened. Paul

edgar: if i ever see another cracked shotgun receiver, it will be one to many...

as for sleeving shotgun breeches, the new tubes are not welded to the breeches, but are soldered instead...do a google search for shotgun barrel sleeving. you should find at least one good discussion of the process...and while you are at it, do a google search for shotgun receiver case hardening as well...this is not the first time this subject has been discussed.

sorry to hear you are house bound.

Soldered or Silver Soldered?
I was making a joke re: the welding in light of your skepticism concerning welding.
I've had a few sleeved guns, only English ones. I have a friend in England who does a pretty nice job of it.

edgar: not sure if barrel sleeving is accomplished with lead or silver solder. job could also be accomplished with brazing?....if i make a joke about something serious, i will be sure to let you know it is a joke.

i do not know enough about welding to be skeptical one way or the other...

however, here is a tig welding question for you. i have a set of parker trojan barrels that have been fit to a parker ph receiver. do you see any problem with tig welding material onto the barrel top rib extension and then dressing it down with a file to fit the receiver slot, so it looks nicer? i am concerned about damage to the barrels during the welding process. to view a picture of barrels on receiver, please see gunsamerica item #904174340.

other expert opinions are encouraged.

That's probably a question better put to one of the better known gunsmiths, as most all have GTAW capabilities. I presume you're refering to the dolls head fit.
What I would be most concerned with is keeping the heat input to a minimum, with quick arcs, since the ribs are soft soldered to the barrels. Additionally, he might use heat sinking materials wrapped in the area to absorb the heat. It might be better done removed, and then reattached prior to file fitting. My experience with welding processes is extensive, but far removed from this, a more delicate detail than steel components we made. Welding is often more than simply joining two pieces of ferrous metals. It can, and often is used to correct machining errors. Two $70,000 steam turbine diffuser diaphragms we made we over machined, by a mere .005", at the joints, which wasn't detected until they were completely fitted into the turbine. The rotor was lifted out, the joint faces were 'buttered' by GMAW, and the entire turbine cases were put on a planer mill ( Table was 12'x80') and milled back down till they were kissing the joint face. High temp ceramic blanket stress relief for PWHT. Even though it was GE's error, I didn't want to have to make them over again.
If you know anyone over in Newport at Ruger you might get into Pine Tree Casting; their investment casting foundry, on the property of the gun company. Pine tree is a substantially captive operation, making investment castings for the gun manufacturing, though they do outside work also. All the Vaquero parts, right down to the triggers, are investment castings, and they do in-house, cosmetic TIG on the many parts which have small surface defects.

edgar: sounds like tig welding around solder joints is a risky thing...as the dolls head serves no functional purpose, i thing the best course is to just leave it as is, even though it would like nicer expanded to fill the receiver slot.