Just my 2cents......

To me a lot of the long range, super dooper duck crushers were merely marketing hype. Not that they didn't work. They worked well with the components available at the time. But they were developed in the era of softer shot using fiber wads and the new smokeless powder which was really in it's infancy. Todays offerings make these old duck crushers even more effective. But they also work very well in these old guns that were simply 30" or 32" field guns with choke constrictions starting around .030 and up. I've shot a boatload of ducks and geese with 2 3/4" loads and most of those with a 20ga. My 30" Fox SW is a great duck gun. Ask me how I know.

So to answer the OP's query; The definition of a long range shotgun to me is any gun you can reliably and cleanly kill birds within 40yds. The majority of hunters have no business shooting at birds 50,60yds or further.

There was a real nice half page chart in an LC collector association newsletter many years ago- I believe it was put together by Jim Stubbendieck - it breaks the total down by grade and options. I’ll see if I can find my copy Dave, It would be good addition to your ever growing data collection


Exactly Daryl, my earlier point

Nash Buckingham gave the Super Fox it’s reputation, but if we were honest, few if any of us will ever shoot like him no matter what’s at our shoulder

To Daryl's point. I live in what was once a pretty reliable crow flyway, in a small agricultural community in So. NV.
Me and my hunting bud were mad scientists, when it came to shotgun ballistics. Being avid hunters, and competitive pigeon shooters, we more than demanded proof. We tested everything, both on paper, and on actual birds.
One day we decided to test some loads on long range migrating crows. With my friend Chuck checking crow altitudes with a laser rangefinder, I would make, or attempt to make stupid-high pass shots at the passing crows. Guns used: An Ithaca Mag 10, and a Perazzi Pigeon gun with 35k and 40k chokes. We couldn't afford to have the NASA Space Agency confirm our findings, but the 12 ga was killing crows out to what we concluded was the lethal limits of the shot size, independent of the added payload of the Mag 10.
The max of the no fly zone was about 90 yards straight up.

Long range guns are wasted on me. I'm a very poor long range shooter. I don't take long shots except for the occasional 45 yard dove (and usually miss). I'm not good at estimating the distance of birds, and generally overestimate them. My shooting averages are good because of this, but I know I'm a fair shot at best. What counts for me is not wounding birds, and taking shorter, makable shots is my method.

Having said this, I still like the idea of those big guns, have a few, and bring them out on occasion to stretch my arms out some. Still, I keep hoping to find a nice, big gun, like the HE or one of those 3 frame Parker 12s. I admire and respect a good long shot, one who practices and can do it with regularity. It's just not me.

I'm really enjoying this thread and have learned much from it. Thanks to the posters.

I absolutely love using big, heavy long range double guns, for ducks, doves and the occasional turkey hunt. My 12/32" HE Fox, factory chambered in 3" length, weighs in at 9/8, as I recall, unloaded. My 12/32" 3E Smith is also factory chambered at 3" length, but not nearly as heavy as the Fox. I much prefer the big Fox with heavy loads for waterfowl. I also have a 3" chambered A grade Fox, 12/32", with a straight grip. I don't like it nearly as well as the HE with heavy loads.

I'm not a muscled up strongman, but I could never understand the obsession with lightweight shotguns for hunting. I have never had any problem chasing down a speeding woodie, or dove, with the big HE. I really enjoy trying to kill doubles (2 for 2) on ducks. With the heavy bismuth loads I use I just don't like the way a lighter weight double gun "jumps around" in my hands from the recoil of the first shot. Weight attenuates that a great deal, as does a pistol grip for me, which allows me to get on that second bird much faster and more accurately.

JMO, YMMV

Stan, a big, heavy, long barreled gun if fine for those birds you mention because you’re generally sitting or standing in one place and you don’t have to lug it uphill and down dale, across wooded and tangled slopes, through blackberry tangles and over blowdowns. Give me a 6 or 7 lb. Gun any say for this kind of work. I have a 9+ lb 10 gauge 3-frame D Lifter for turkeys if I want to use it but I’ll normally take my 12 ga. 2-frame 30” DH because it’s 7/12 lbs. I ofter sneak back into these covers before daylight and that’s over a mile in sometimes. That’s why I like a lighter gun.





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My Ithaca 10 Mag Is over 11 pounds and is a workout on a Fall turkey hunt. Most shots are aimed, but I did take a 57 step flying young turkey on the wing with it one Fall. Once you get it swinging, it keeps going, I will say that!

The world is a better place when there are some differences. This is a good example.

To respond to earlier questions, from the AH Fox factory records: 624 HE Grade
Super Foxes had 2 3/4 chambers, while 314 had 3 inch chambers, 8 were not recorded for a total of 946.*

A review of the pages within The Parker Story revealed precious little on the Long Range Parker,
and nothing noted in the index pages. My eyes are aging, so feel free to correct my limited research.
Lt Col Brophy's LC Smith volume covers the Long Range Waterfowl Hunter Arms
guns, but there is no mention of the reinforced lug splinter, as it has been termed
and is found on my 3 inch Long Range Smith.

This has been an interesting short study, and my appreciation is extended to all of the PGCA members
who have generously contributed to our knowledge of Long Range Parkers and other fine long range American double guns.
(I am still in search of a Long Range 3 inch
Parker and hopefully will discover one hidden in a small gun shop or left in a duck blind.)

{Mary reminds me that I was a PGCA member, N0. 905 in 2001-but disappeared for a good while after September of that year.
She graciously allowed me to retain that member number after returning to the fold relatively unscathed.}


* From Craig Larter's " The Super Fox 12-gauge Shotgun"; Winter 2011 Issue;
Double Gun Journal

Perhaps I'm too narrow-minded about gun weights. But, I don't think so. I can appreciate a lighter quail and woodcock gun, and have several of my own.

Just always seemed odd to me that so many men obsess over one or two pounds extra weight on a turkey gun, that they may carry a mile or more slung over their shoulder, but never complain about having to tote a 24 pound bird that mile back out.

Not all duck hunts are easy peasy walks in the park, either. I'm no stranger to hell-hole woodie ponds that require walking in through briar patches, devil vines, blowdowns and sharp beaver cut stobs that don't slow down punching through a set of waders.

Variety is indeed the spice of life, and I'm very glad so many people prefer lighter guns. They certainly have their place.

A good, and cheap, alternative to a Long Range Parker is a ten gauge with twelve gauge chamber inserts. Most wads seem to seal just fine in a .775 bore. An .800 bore, maybe not so much.

Gosh, Stan, I don't think you're are narrow-minded at all. You obviously have great experience and have developed a good knowledge of your guns and yourself. And, by what I can tell from your posts, you're an excellent shot.

I like all kinds of double guns, and have a variety of weights, barrel lengths, etc. I tell myself I "need" all these variations for particular settings. I've got some 8-11 lbs. duck guns, a "heavy," long barreled gun for pheasants, a short barreled light weight arsenal for woodcock, and a wider variety of guns for quail (which I hunt the most). I choose the quail guns dependent upon the cover I'll be hunting, and my go-to quail gun is a 30 inch 20 gauge Parker that weighs 6 lbs. 10 oz (not exactly light). Most of my shooting is at close rising birds, often in thick cover. I like the maneuverability of a lighter gun then. At least for me, I get on birds quicker with that type gun. I can see the trade off when I need to take longer crossing shots, as I often end up stopping my swing. That's as much my poor shooting as it is the gun weight, but I know I shoot a more forward-weighted gun better on longer crossing shots. I just don't take many of those over the course of a season. Actually, I don't shoot that much at all any more, limiting my take to just a brace of quail on most days...if I'm lucky enough to find birds.

I've been think about getting a 3 weight Parker 12...and a .410 Parker. I'm sure I'd likely shoot the former better than the latter, mostly because of the potential dynamics of those guns. I'll never be a good shot at dove with a .410 like you obviously are(:bowdown:), but I only go a few days a year at the season's opening...then all the birds head South and I'm left to those "other" birds. Thank goodness. Dove are a humbling experience for this mediocre shot.:crying:

It's hard to stop a train! ;-)
Reminds me of a story.
I was at a pigeon shoot one weekend, in a little village in Old Mexico called Sacramento, as I recall. I think they called it El Champion Shoot, or sum sutch.
This particular shoot was a SxS shoot.
One of my crazier friends from back then, (I'll call him John) was shooting an 8 gauge SxS, and, after some persuasion, lent me the gun and 10 shells to shoot a 5 bird practice.
I don't remember much about the first 4, but the last bird sprang outta box 9 and sped away towards the right side of the back fence, like he needed to be somewhere!
The gun was slow to start, but I gave it a shove and it lumbered smoothly across the field, and past the fleeting bird. The right barrel discharged at almost the right time, and caused a large swarm of shot to cut feathers on his right side.
The bird, was infuriated, and swung a u-turn right at the fence, and commenced to charge the gun at high speed!
I left skid marks on the ground beneath me, as I slammed on the brakes, got her stopped, then muscled those huge barrels back in the new direction the bird had taken.
I managed to put the bead on the lips of the charging bird, and hit the 2nd trigger at just the right moment this time.
The devastation was epic! Looked like a pillow fight at mid-field! Imagine a full choked 8 gauge centering a pigeon at 20 or so yards.
I handed the big gun back to my friend and thanked him for the ride, while athletic young Mexicans cleaned up the mess.
The big gun kinda surprised me at how well it handled, in spite it's large frame, and long barrels. 36", as I recall. I think I was something like 3x5 with the big gun, on the practice, with the 8 ga. Yes, big guns are fun!
BTW, I did manage a 2nd place with a 32" Runge/Delgreco A-1 Special trap gun that I brought for the event, so it was a pretty good day for me.
The Parker Gun felt like a cue stick after shooting the 8 gauge, and earned me a few Pesos that day.

** Posted and later deleted until I have more time to check something interesting.

Were you in that part of Mexico about 20 years ago?

No, only in Cancun and Tijuana.

I'll bet there are some stories linked with those two locations.:eek::shock:

I know some guys who used to shoot doves down in Hermosillo and yes, there were some stories.
BTW, sorry about the wordy post above. I was home alone yesterday, and didn't know whether to write a country western ballad, or make a post on the Parker site.

Same here Todd. Somedays I don't know whether to solve world hunger, work for peace or go shooting. Can't decide between 20 or 28ga. Oh well, let's take them both.

Thanks Daryl. Maybe some day soon after some favorable climate change we can get together and work towards whirled peas.

I got a text from a guy that runs a ring in PA a couple days ago for a friday saturday shoot . Sadly I'll be out of the country (I hope) . But in the two days shoot there will be a 20 bird 28 gauge race . I'm kinda new to the pigeon game but I'd never heard of lesser gauge races .

I would however like to try my DH 8 in the pigeon ring with my light 1 1/2 ounce load in the right barrel and the heavier 1 3/4 ounce load in the left barrel .

Probably not in this lifetime Todd. Let's just go shooting.

Our friend Honest John used to have a 28ga event. I've got the perfect gun for that.:)

Yes sir that little Perazzi would work very well for that I do believe !

If I were going to be here for the event I would be calling a friend in Fredricksburg thats connected with the Fausti chicks and see about getting a Fausti SxS 28 that was 32" or possibly 30" .

I was thinking of my 30" VHE 28.:)

my definition of a long range gun...abig bore with long barrels lots of choke and will drop the quarry be it wild foul or beast at least out to 60 yards every shot ...charlie

I agree with you, Charlie. Many people today do not know what true long range wing shooting is all about. They assume that shotguns are necessarily short range tools. They're not.

When you get the chance to watch a truly long range shotgunner at work it is an amazing sight to see. However, really long range shotguns are very specialized tools, and require a unique skill set.

I've recently become interested in these late Parker 1-1/2 frame/3-inch Long Range guns. I highlighted part of Kevin's post and question whether they really were straight along the full length of the barrel from breech to muzzle? The width across the 1-1/2 frame barrel breech is about 2.290" and width across the muzzles (32” barrel) is about 1.610". And if perfectly straight and without a transition “swamp” for at least a few inches forward of the breeches that might make for a decided heft and odd look to the back end of the barrels.

Or is it, that the barrels are straight tapered without a swamp from a point beginning some inches (10-12?) ahead of the breech and out to the muzzle?

Can someone with an original late 12 ga/3-inch gun on a 1-1/2 frame please check this for us?

Frank:
One of our seldom seen PGCA members has a later Remington-Parker VHE 12 GA chambered and marked "3-in" chambers. At one time he had considered selling it, but now is off the radar screen. If he can be contacted again, I will ask about his frame size and possibly get him to do some measurement checks for all interested

As you may know, I am the present owner of the Parker Bros. VHE 2 7/8 inch gun that belonged to you then Reggie, through Mike K. -I believe. It is the same gun that graced the Winter 2021 issue of Parker Pages so well described by yourself.
Under the heading "all things come to those who have patience", I have recently manged to obtain an Ithaca Flues straight-stocked 12 that has 3 in chambers. Also recent and in the running is a 1924 LC Smith Long Range Field grade, with straight stock, much case color and original barrel finish remaining-with wood checked. So with the Super and another Long Range Smith, I have managed to corner a representative collection of American duck, goose and turkey artillery pieces. Excellent "bird guns".

Another tangent but related subject that I am doing research on is modern lead shot shell performance, along with non-toxic shell attributes, usage within these shotguns at the century mark. While the actions of these double guns may handle some reduced velocity/ pressures of modern offerings, the aged walnut stock material certainly was not made to handle the higher velocity loads of some of today's tungsten or bismuth loads.
Would that the DGJ was present to publish articles keeping our double gun aficionados
constantly current on the realties of modern shot shell velocities.

The era of John Olin's 1920's Super-X shells has passed. With shot column technology, non-toxic heavy shot, and increased performance-based commercial research:
We truly have 3-inch guns from another era, that can CHAMBER 3-inch shot shells, but
caveat emptor as to which ones are safe in our guns. And is it realistic to safely expect the same levels of performance-or greater- in 100-year old shotguns?
The Model 12 Heavy Duck guns may see more use than ever expected-as velocities approach 1500 fps in modern loaded shells. ( We do have RST and Boss, however.)

I think the 3" Remington era Parker mentioned by Lt Col Marriot is one I saw when it first surfaced in the retail world at least a couple of owners ago and I declined to purchase because of its poor condition and its light weight and 1 1/2 frame. Any comments about swamped barrels or not swamped barrels should be put to rest by measurements of outside diameter, breech to muzzle in 2 5/8" and marked 3" barrels. I seriously doubt that a 1 1/2 frame Remington era 3" marked gun has any different barrel taper than does a normal 2 5/8" 1 1/2 frame gun of the same era. I would like to see a 3" marked Remington gun placed on an accurate scale. I think Frank would like to see the same.

I see WLM has listed an over eight pound 1923 vintage VHE, 2-frame, 32-inch 12-gauge on GI. No mention of chamber length in the text.

My definition of long range is shooting my recently acquired 410 Skeeter over trap! lol

Reading this tread on "long range" doubles has had me captivated and it will probably end up costing me more $$ because I'll start looking to acquire one. That said I'm fairly new to the double gun world, I started acquiring doubles in 2020 which has lead to 3 L.C. Smiths 12ga Ideal, 16ga Ideal, 20ga Specialty, Fox 16ga sterling, and 3 parkers 12's 2 DHE's and a VHE. I'm no stranger to the shotgun world I shoot trap, skeet and sporting clays at competitively for 20 plus and I'm a avid bird hunter. My 12ga VHE Remington era is a 30 in barrel chocked M/F is murder on ducks at 40 yards plus with Bismuth loads and performs like a champ on ZZ targets with 1oz 71/2 loads. I would definitely consider that gun a "long range" double. Now I have to distract the CEO (wife) long enough so I can fine one of these "long range" doubles you all are referring to I'll blame this group if I get caught :rotf:

Yup - we have big shoulders, we can take it!





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Allen, tell us about your Skeet .410. How is it choked? I have never measured the chokes on my 30" .410 Skeeter, but I assume they are full in both barrels.

I have news for you ! After years of shooting not light shotgun loads and being pounded at the bench by heavy rifles my shoulders are starting to be an issue . So while I agree “we can take it” , one reaches a point where it isn’t as comfortable as it once was .

I own what I consider two long range Parkers, but made before the advent of the 3" Super-X. BHE 134923 12/32 #2 frame .041/.039 chokes .731/.730 factory documented 2 7/8" chambers 8lbs 5oz.
CHE 12/32 #3 frame .037/.040 chokes .740/.742 (patterned for #2 shot per the letter) 2 7/8" chambers factory documented, 8lbs 4oz.

Late to the party again.

Dave asked about the Smith LRWF guns.
"Long Range Hyperbole" was published in the DGJ by Drew Hause, James Stubbendieck, and J. David Williamson, Volume 24, Issue 1, Page 137, 2013.

I have Dr. Jim's "Production Records" and could answer specific questions. There was a total of 2,704 LRWF guns manufactured, but a few did not have 3" chambers.

BTW: the Parker "Long Range" appeared in the 1894-1895 Montgomery Ward catalog

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/...0%282%29-M.jpg

May 1922 Hunter - Trader - Trapper

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/...205-1922-M.png

but that ad hypes the long range killing power. not specifically a model called the "Long Range".

in fact it shows a Trojan - so a Parker Trojan is a long range - as is any tightly choked Parker

I’ve not paid a whole lot of attention to the chokes in most of my guns other than points of constriction. But the redone AH Fox HE I had for a month or so last summer had to be the tightest and longest choked taperwise gun I’ve ever possessed .

I have a BHE 12 gauge, #3 frame, 34 inch barrels, 3 inch chambers, that weighs more than I do. Choked extra full/extra full. It was originally owned by a big time duck hunter from Peoria (not Fred Kimble). I assume it was intended as a long range shooter. At least it has proven to be a long range shooter.