Yes Mike; I am enamoured of many of his compositions; some of my favorites are "Toads of the Short Forest", "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue", and "America Drinks and goes Home." Each somehow remain relevant in small and personal ways to our various shooting events over the year. Can't wait for our 2022 outings!

Some of my uh friends were complaining about ammo availabilty then the cost . They're telling me this as I am methodically loading shells right in front of them . And I see the dim wat light bulb go on over their little heads . Then their brilliant idea comes bubbling out .

Usually went something like this ,

You've got plenty components , how about letting me buy enough at your cost to load me a flat of shells and I just pay your cost .

Usual reply on my nice days were , you don't wanna pay me what I charge to load for others . FWIW I don't load for others on a payment basis , if I load for someone it's done more as a gift and then very very rarely .

On not happy days it was more to the effect of "Get the hell out of my sight" .

Lowest today is the 1oz Federals, free shipping for members or $20 for non members.

They were probably quoting you their actual cost. Ammo cost a lot because of the weight and special handling. I shipped a flat of 20 gauge shells from Tennessee to Texas and the cost was $39. $395 for 12 flats is high,but probably what they had to pay.

This thread has really wandered around and at one point got off into the never ending recoil argument. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and decision, but I personally don't believe that most of the loads listed above are "Parker appropriate" (or LC Smith or Older Ithaca or Lefever or whatever).

Number 1, I agree that high recoil should be avoided due to fragile wood. However, a broken stock won't kill me. A blown up barrel may, or someone near me.

I own a bunch of shotguns old and new and have been intensely following the low pressure quest for 15 years or more. I have seen too many actual pressure tests of Lite style shells to believe that most of them are what I want to shoot. The problem is that while they strive for low recoil, they also make good and sure no one is going to complain about an autoloader, which makes up a huge part of their market, is going to malfunction. Most tests of Lite loads I have ever seen tend to be in the 9000 to 10000 range. I for one don't consider that at all appropiate for a 120 year old shotgun. The ultimate goal I have always seen has been to duplicate black powder loading. That number from a working standpoint is in the 6000 to 6500 range. A lot of people seem to use a rule of staying below 8500 or so but that causes me personal concern. I shoot RST's but feel they are the max I want. From my standpoint, 6000 is my number and all the loads I make have been tested to be in the 5000 to 6500 range. There are a lot of them published if you look.
I also shoot only an appropriate length shell for the gun. Data shows there is not a huge increase by shooting long shells in short chambers. However, it varies and there is no way to know for sure. Just last week I saw a test report of this and in a 5 shot string the increase measured between 300 and 1200 psi increase. If you decide to shoot a "Lite" load and it happens to be 9500 psi and the long shell happens to boost that particular round by 1200 then you are in the full SAMMI max range and totally ignoring the entire concept.

Some people argue that there is a difference between black powder and new loads because of burning rate, but Sherman Bell's seminal article on the subject I think pretty much put that to rest. He tested low pressure loads using fast burning powder vs black powder with the same peak pressure readings and measured at many points down the barrel. The pressure profile all along the barrel was essentially duplicated.

There was a lengthy thread on the new Remington Vintage shells recently. The asumption seemed to be through the entire thread that these would be a new answer to low pressure ammo supply, but they were expensive and couldn't be found. They actually stocked quite a few of these at a local large gun store, but shot selection of what they had was useless. I did research the shells, however, and found not one mention anywhere in the data that they were a bit lower than normal pressure. They seemed to be marketed for the pure nostalgia of the thing.

My solution is to load either 2" or 2-1/2" shells with square loads or better of shot and shoot for a load that has been tested at 5500 to 6500 psi. They will then interchange in all my old guns with no worry. With the new guns, I generally stick to factory rounds as a source of empties.

So the burn rate and pressure curve of one specific powder could create a different recoil moment or "feel" than another with the same muzzle velocity at the end of the barrels? I.e. some shells with identical printed charge weights and velocities could feel different when fired.

Powder companies make marketing claims about felt recoil but that doesnt change the physics. Those peters paper shells have a wad which is supposed to absorb some of the initial acceleration. Some will maintain these claims are true while others probably dont notice.

Just my take on things, but if I had a vintage American double gun (Parker, Fox, Lefever, LC Smith, Ithaca) made after smokeless powders came into common use and felt the need to limit it to < 6500 psi for fear of blowing up a barrel and injuring myself or someone else, I'd toss the barrels into my neighbor's swamp and part out the gun. If the barrels were that weak I wouldn't ever sell the gun intact or have it passed on and set someone else up for a blow up and serious injury or worse. I’m talking here about pressure, not recoil; they’re not directly related and are so often confused and some even use the terms interchangeably. Again this is just what I’d do in that situation. :)

Just ordered two flats of B&P Comp I Target 12's, 2 3/4" 7/8 oz 7 1/2 at 1160 fps. $199.80 shipped. Two flat limit. AbleAmmo
www.ableammo.com

100 dollars a flat is what one of my favorite Sporting Clays courses charges for B&P Comp One. He only stocks 1 oz no 7/8. Only sells to shooters, walk in don’t shoot won’t sell. He has AA 110 dollars Fiocchi 90. Plenty of shells on hand.

That B&P 7/8 oz was my first choice when stating with SxS guns, it’s a great load. 100 per flat = 10 dollars a box. My reloads that duplicate the B&P with 80 dollar per thousand primers 50 dollars x 25 lbs shot. Wads and powder on hand at pre shortage cost box cost 7.50 . Figure scalper powder prices add another dollar.

Looks like it’s what we need to expect going forward.

William

I have tried to use CompOnes for years because of their proven low pressures. I have given up in every gun except for my external hammer guns. I've tried them in a Perazzi, a BSS, numerous AH Foxes, and several others. All of them are prone to a very high rate of misfires due to light primer hits. My hammer guns will detonate them 100% of the time, so I've relegated the rest of the two flats I bought to those guns.

I'd be interested in hearing of others' incidences of failure to fire with them. Mike K. once told me that he had also seen several instances of it at his range. I'd love to be able to use them in more of my guns, but they just seat too deeply in the chambers for reliable ignition.

Stan I have never had a fail to fire with Comp 1 shells in Parker’s . To be honest though have not used over a couple flats in one Parker a tight VH. Liking the shell went to reloaded duplicate ballistics with AA hulls.

I have used many Italian shells in modern guns, if they are available buy to conserve scarce components. Weak point on all is the rim. Good example I owned a Remington 31 16 G pump. Used Cheddites mostly to obtain empty’s to cut down for my Parker 16s some say 31 was the best pump, may or may not be true but it would not extract Cheddite hulls well. Beretta gas operated guns handle them fine. Europeans don’t reload much, durable case not needed

William

Mike P., what you are saying is that the B&P website that says "Everything" is out of stock is not quite telling the truth. "Out of stock" means we have plenty to sell you two flats? The prices are not off the charts compared to some.

There is a lot of talk about total lack of ammunition, and I understand RST is having a big problem now, but my experience is that there is a lot of 12g ammo out there to buy. I think the biggest problem is people want it for $80 a flat. In the past month I have gotten Gun Club Lite, Federal Top Gun Lite, Fiocchi's in a variety of flavors, BP, Nobelsport Italia and Cheddite Mach 3 (a real screamer). With shipping the most I've paid is $17 a box, the least $11 a box. I split this with other guys to spread shipping costs out. I think that's the place we're in now with price. Your mileage WILL vary for 16g, 20g and 28g and forget about .410.

Murph, when I got the tip on the 23rd I went straight to the Able Ammo website and found the 7/8 oz 7 1/2's still there, but the 8's all gone. I posted the link here after I made the order. I suspect that they may have sold out shortly after that. I never looked at the B&P site. Who knows?

They went quick because I ordered 3 flats (they said they had 167 left) but they called ten minutes later saying they were all gone.