Mike, we started doing a Pro-Am Shoot here at our SXS event. We take the top 5 scores and bottom 5 scores in any 50 bird event and pair them up. Basically 1-10,2-9,3-8,4-7,5-6. Shoot-off has 5 report pair. The "Am" must shoot at each target first, the "Pro" can only shoot back-up. Keeps it interesting and gets more shooters involved into the competetive team concept. They all have fun and no complaints about the format. I like the FPC and FLC in the top 5 vs top 5 format, but will shoot it no matter what is done. Maybe a Pro-Am type deal as a new event with no differentiation between Parker or Fox shot earlier in the day? All scores put in the list and Pros and Ams figured from there. Only issue would be whether the 5-Stand would be busy or not.

A club i belong to 35 years had a man who bought a Perazzi and spent a few thousand dollars on a skeet coach so he could win the winter and summer skeet league. He won going away and was very smug about it, to the point of being obnoxious. A system of handicap was brought up and he was incensed, he would again have to be in competion with the little people. He refused to play when this was proposed and went away. We all lived happily ever after.

Sunday marked the annual members shoot-off and luncheon at nearby Rock Mountain. Daryl and Smitty stopped by to shoot before heading back to their homes, First pic L to R - Abby, Frank, Daryl and Mike

Second: Quite a range of guns on our squad ..... two Parker small bores (28 & 16), Model 12, Browning o/u and Beretta competition gas gun

Last: Abby is getting close to getting her own vintage SxS. Here she's trying out Mike's way cool 32" VH 16 bore

I like that idea Big Guy. Might be a way to satisfy everyone but it could turn in to a time/scheduling nightmare. Something to think about.

Let me give you my thought per my perspective.

First the competition aspect and I'll just talk about the Parker vs. LC Smith Challenge at the Southern for now. Each year I ask myself if I really want to shoot the qualifier and pay 60 cents per target for essentially practice? Being a realist, I know I have a snowballs chance in hell of making the team. Every year I do it. Why? First, I like to hear the gun go off, secondly, I want to support my Association, and thirdly, some part of the entry fee goes to a good cause. 10 high gun shooters make the team for each Association. I don't know how many shooters shoot the qualifier but the shooting is continuous for all day Friday and a half day Saturday. That's a lot of shooters and the majority of them will never make their team. It's the same shooters who make the team year after year plus or minus a couple of new additions. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching these guys break targets in the shootoff that I can't hit in my dreams. No amount of practice at my age will bring me up to their level.

Now for the Fox Parker Challenge, I want to congratulate Steve, Craig, and Daryl for trying something new to get the "average shooter" involved in the challenge. It seems like many of the "Top Dogs" don't like it. I guess only 2 "Top Dogs" in the shootoff is not enough. They want it all, even though it's been that way in the Fox Parker Challenge for years, and it's always been that way at the Southern. I can tell you that my name was drawn for the Parker team and I was apprehensive about shooting. I didn't want everyone to see how bad of a shot I was (although many already knew) and cost the Parker team the win. I hadn't been in a shootoff in almost 20 years while shooting ATA. I sucked it up and shot but boy was I nervous as I'm sure Dennis Downs and Fox shooter Laura Beavers was. I can tell you this, my nerves were a wreck and my heart was pounding when I took the line. My memory of shootoffs long ago are still etched in my memory and this one will be too. Lets think of the average shooters in our Associations a little more, the "Top Dogs" will still get their bones. Big shout out to Laura Beavers for giving it her best shot.

I was the “random” guy chosen for the Fall Southern shoot off years ago. I managed to not cost the team a victory and still have the trophy in my office. Looked at it and thought about that day today as a matter of fact

Some pictures of the Fox Parker Challenge. Moe, Larry, Curly

Team Fox
L to R
Dick Mider
Jeff Stegmeier
Laura Beavers
Dana Farrell
Mike Smith

Team Parker
L to R
Dennis Downs
Mal McGregor
Mike Koneski
Chuck Bishop
Dave Defernelmont

Chuck - I applaud you for speaking with impunity of your candid opinions. Thank you!





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Team Fox has it on looks at least

Well Chuck as it turns out you have nothing to apologize for. You shot lights out as that nervous, heart pounding condition served you well on the line. You channeled it just like you did when you were on your way to a 100 straight in your trap shooting days. As I said before I'm so glad you were chosen as you became our amateur- shooter- who- didn't -want -to -shoot-but-stepped-up-and- delivered guy. As it turns out letters are not the only thing you are good at.:bowdown:

Seriously, you and Dennis need to shoot for Fox next year. You both proved that this new system can work.

As a sidebar: The following morning while we were shooting the main I find out that a Fox shooter shot a 44/50 on the course but didn't know to turn in his card. He thought that we were OK for shooters. If he had turned it in the win would have been awarded to the Fox Assn. Live and learn. You were there and watched him break 67/80 for third place in the main event. He won't be 15 until next year.:rolleyes:

I must agree!

Every year for the last 6 years, minus the pandemic year, I always shoot the Parker/ Smith qualifier two or three times each year. I always miss the cut by 2 or 3 targets, once it was by 1 target. Would I like to shoot the challenge, absolutely, would I like to be able to shoot it as being a drawn ticket, maybe. I will say a great thank you to Daryl, Craig, and Steve for stepping up to the plate and running the event. I am sure that everyone enjoyed themselves and that is one major point of the whole "shooting match" pardon the pun.

Tom gets it. Thanks. Next year save your money and spend it at Drake Landing.

Yup, that kid knows how to shoot, just hope girls don't trip him up too soon:rotf:

Imagine the scores Shane could shoot using a Parker!!! WOW!!:shock:

Shane could show up with a Barker and still shoot like that. Young eyes, young reflexes.

He could shoot for Team Crescent!! We should hook him up.

Shooting the Crescent could signal a resurgence of the Stoat.:crying:

TRUTH!!! BWAHAHAHA!! Head up or head down? Any flying turnips? :rotf:

I shot the 20 and 16 challenges at Sanford this year . Each three times I think and qualified for the 20 . Sorry to say I didn’t shoot the open challenge , I will next year several times . Didn’t name guns in June at Hausemann’s so I suppose I wasn’t able to qualify . I did at Mikes and qualified . And provided I’m
Alive and the creek don’t rise I’ll compete in all three challenges at Georgetown . To be quite honest I thrive on competition and Sanford got my competitive juices flowing again . Can’t say I consider myself top dog caliber but I’m damn sure nipping at their heels .

Mike,

I was going to say, You should see him with an Ithaca in his hands, but I suppose you seen that already:)

Great discussion on the new format both pro and con. I'll add this:

If you look at it conceptually, when you meld three "average" shooters with two "competition" shooters, chances are the average Joes will step-up their game several notches, and in theory, you should have one hell of a competitive match. And that's exactly what transpired. Not to mention, the majority of spectacular dead pairs and lengthy second barrel kills were performed by you guessed it, the Joes. All and all, I thought it was one of the most exciting FPC contests we've had in years.

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I always thought was a " fun shoot" If people want to shoot competition that could be done elsewhere.
Scott

It's a fact Pete...





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I sure hope it will be a long time before I " Age Out ", but one thing I know for sure is that, in the future, I'll be renting a cart instead of pushing my gun caddy up Ernie's hills.:rotf:

As I read all the comments on the challenge events, the good, bad and ugly of it all I believe in the past two challenge events (Fox/LeFever in June and Fox/Parker last week) the Fox BOD, with yours truly and Toolman spearheading the effort, have made this event more accessible to the average shooter.

Chuck Bishop's post earlier in this thread concerning the P/LCS challenge at the Southern outlined the feelings of many who shot but had a snowballs chance in hell to make the team. Same old faces in all the same places. I've always wanted to level the playing field and I think we are on the right path.

Evidence: In June at the F/L challenge we had, for the first time on the national stage, a 14yr old and his dad on the same team. At last weeks event we had our first woman and his excellency the "Bishop" on the line shooting for their respective makers.

These challenge events are not to prove which gun is better. We know they are all great guns and many of us own and shoot one or more of each. If these events are to continue and be successful we need to return to the original premise of like minded individuals gathering to shoot their favorite guns and have an equitable chance of "making the team and getting the hat'' IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. If not, can't we just get together and have fun?

Agreed Daryl, and I think we should endeavor to stick to this premise. However, even in the 1880’s, and later, in the pigeon shoots of yore it was always about the expertise of the shooter and not so much the gun, but if you are a religious reader of John Davis’ quarterly column “Parkers In Pulp” (as I am.) the gun always got billing after the shoot and the respective manufacturers were very quick to claim victory for their “brand.”





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I've told John that the "Parkers in Pulp" series is my favorite read.

Yes, way back then Dean, those shooters were like the athlete "superstars" of today hawking their sponsored products.
The top clay shooters of today are sponsored by the various ammo and gun manufactures as they were back then. Hit a Titlelist3 and you could be just as good as Arnie Palmer.

In most cases the age old axiom "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" holds true.
Just because Parker, Fox, LCSmith or Lefever wins a challenge event we all understand that they are all great guns but not the best in the field.

So come to these events with your favorite piece or pieces, shoot your best, and feel good that you don't have to shoot like Digweed or Koneski to make the team. Just keep in mind that there will always be a #3 crosser that will level the playing field.:eek::bigbye:

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;344366][SIZE="4"] " No matter how the teams are picked there will be unhappy people. Since many really good shooters will jump on the team they qualify for brand loyalty is questionable...

.... this year the Vintagers did not offer a discounted round for no score as they did in '19 and is done at the June shoot at Hausmann's...... I think the lack of having a discounted round for no score is self defeating for the club as I think it leads to less shooting overall.

... Breakdown of equipment such as the pigeon ring not being available for most of the shoot affects participation as well. "

Now this really gets to the heart of the matter....Thanks, Pete!!!

Geez, ya miss 5 targets with 4 of them being a simple r to l crosser and you become a has been!!!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: Trust me, anyone can be "stuck on stupid"!! :banghead::banghead:

If it is the crosser I remember, it is tough. But tough is good.

Totally different targets than in June on the 5-Stand. I thought that target was actually one of the simpler targets on that event. Not fast, not far, just a lot of transition and I shot over it all 4 times. Didn't miss it in the Field Gun event. It is what it is. :)

Don't sweat it K-Man....when they stop roasting the chestnuts, then it's time to worry!! You got this!!! :bigbye:

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It's all good Tool, I would expect nothing less!! I do prefer my roasted chestnuts in PA Dutch Potato Filling!! :cool:

Just yanking your chain, but I know you know that. I did list you after Digweed so you got that going for you.

That #2 gave some shooters a fit. Me included.:banghead:

But Digweed shoots "Eurotrash"!! :rotf::rotf::rotf: