I agree with you Tom, in that we all have to make our choices based on the information we have but we can’t limit that information to just “food and cover” and we need to take in as many variables as we can find and apply them to our model and see if they have an effect. In the case of disease, we simply ignore such an important influence. I guess what I’m saying is that if a species could use a little help from us I believe it is our duty to help while staying within the law.





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Living in the country, I fear coyote predation on my dogs--I saw them gang up on my best friends 100 lb Lab. Bob cats probably a bigger predator on grouse than coyote. Yeserday i took a 4 hour hike thru strip pit country--carried a 22mag, specifcally for coyote. This one with a 20 ga slug gun.

Here in NH. back before the coyote started it's "come back" in the early 80's we had plenty of grouse, rabbits, and woodchucks and NO COYOTE. you could hunt grouse with out a dog just by walking and on deer drives you would carry bird shot to shoot the ones you ran into while walking. I haven't shot a grouse in over 25 years in the southern part of our state, the woodchucks I use to shoot with my bow around populated areas are all but gone. snow shoe rabbits the same and the coyote population is very high! . peoples dogs and cats are getting killed by the, There are people getting attacked by the sick ones too. I shoot all I can when I see them. I all so believe they have something to do with the ticks being spread. When I was a kid in the late 60's and early 70's we had little or no ticks. I do a lot of taxidermy work and when I skin one out ,they are full of ticks and they travel a lot to spread them around ??? (IMHO)
scott

Right Scott and I hardly ever see a red fox anymore... coyotes eat them too. The foxes that survive are the gray foxes that are able to climb trees.





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I have always said if there was ever a nuclear Holocaust there would only be two creatures that would survive. Cockroaches and Coyotes, and within 2 years there would only be the Coyotes as they will have eaten all of the roaches.
When Parker Bros. Started making their first shotguns there were no Coyotes in the Eastern states.
The coyote has evolved and has expanded his range and now thrives in 49 of the 50 states. He is not the coyote he was 100 years ago. DNA supports this fact.
4 to 500,000 Coyotes are killed each year which should give us an idea of just how many there really are.
Coyotes are very adaptable. They literally will eat anything. Don’t fool yourself that they don’t have an impact on your deer, Turkey and upland bird population. The millions of Coyotes in United States are not just eating road kill and the weak.
Just my 2 cents, but Coyotes have evolved and expanded their range to a point that they have no less impact than the flying carp, snakes, and iguanas that have invaded different parts of our country.
Currently the coyote has very few natural predators.They have learned to adapt and survive even it large city’s.
Unfortunately any thought that nature has a way of balancing things out may not apply to the coyote in a way you would hope for. I have not heard of large scale mass die off of Coyotes due to starvation or disease.
I have personally read about and observed the Pronghorn population south of Tucson near the community of Sonoita suffer due to the coyote praying on the newborns. They have suffered a zero percent survival rate for years.
Game and Fish has transplanted Pronghorn back into this area and has even resorted to aerial gunning killing literally 100’s of Coyotes in a few days. This has helped but the herds continue to suffer.
I agree for the most part that we should eat the game we shoot, but the coyote is not game and although they have their place it’s not everywhere and in unchecked numbers.
As a side note. Most of the Coyotes we trap or call in are skinned.

I agree 100% Phil. They are vermin and should be treated as such.

I wish we could unleash the coyotes upon the wild boar and feral pig populations. What beautiful mayhem that would be.





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Dean'
Remember
wild pigs are doing what wild pigs are suppose to do.

:biglaugh:






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Is the term vermin like "weed" (a plant out of place)? There are many times I feel like humans are the vermin.

I'm a little too young to remember the days when bounty's were paid for shooting hawks and fox pelts brought good money. These were the days before we had coyotes in Pa.
From what I understand, those were the days of bountiful small game, however, modern farming has also had an affect on small game.

Just my opinion, coyotes are hard on deer, woodchucks, and small game, that is why I will shoot them every chance I have.
I also believe if we were allowed to keep the number of hawks in check, our small game would be better off, but not to the level it once may have been. I know this may seem like swearing to some, but to be real honest, we have way too many hawks, I remember 30 years back, it was great to see a red tail hawk, but anymore, we have way too many.

Only my opinions,
Stan Hoover

ver·min
/ˈvərmən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
Wild animals that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., rodents.
parasitic worms or insects.
"his clothes are infested with vermin"

People perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society.
"the vermin who ransacked her house"




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Alas, given my age and eye sight... I rarely stay in the stand until end of shooting light these days. I am VERY careful about any archery shot I take, and if I do not think the shot will lead to a quick recovery, it's a hard pass. The good news in this, is that it's been over 10 years since I wasn't able to recover a deer within an hour of the shot, with most in a matter of minutes as I have seen them expire within 50 yds of me. So, the coyotes have had to wait until I bone out and take the meat I want from the animals. I don't do it where they lay, but bring them up to my cabin where I have a gambrel hanging in the tree which makes the job easy. All the carcass I don't want, gets thrown into a ice fishing sled, and discarded on my place far away from my cabin where the coyotes can enjoy it in peace(Minus the crows and grinners).

As for the coyotes.... We have an over abundance of them in our area. Used to see quite a few red foxes, but that's been years now. I don't hardly put a dent in their numbers, but figure taking them out isn't hurting anything.

I will say this, a coyote is the one animal left in the woods, that no other animal seems to have any interest in eating. And, they do make good targets. :-)

I have a persistent coyote that has been tracking the deer on my property I cant wait till I can connect with the coyote.

Sorry. My question was rhetorical ((of a question) asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.), but Dean's response makes it still a good question to ask.

Thanks, Dean.

I will say this, a coyote is the one animal left in the woods, that no other animal seems to have any interest in eating. And, they do make good targets. :-)[/QUOTE]

funny you posted that, I have put coyote bodies in the woods after I take the hides off of them and nothing eats them ,except maggots, they end up rotting there
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With perfect timing, this article from Shooting Sportsman just popped up in my email. It's interesting that humans are the cause of this invasive species, and yet, our tendency is to blame the ferrel hogs. In Missouri our Conservation Dept. has found that hunting hogs actually allows them to spread because taking one hog from a "sounder" disperses the remaining hogs. So, you cannot hunt them on public land in Missouri, but can on private. These are tough issues, mostly because we humans can't sort them out.

https://shootingsportsman.com/invasi...ource=hs_email

a buzzard wont eat a coyote or a dog most of the time...charlie

Evidently, neither will a grinner....

I gut-shot a coyote while deer hunting about twenty years ago. He ran off like his tail was on fire. I knew he’d die of the wound eventually. Two days later I found his skeletal remains with just his intestines, head and his tail. Everything else had been eaten by his pack mates as evidenced by their tracks in the snow.






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Those hogs will be dealt with promptly should they ever slow down Warren's train set!

Speaking of predation.... This just in from the SD game commission.








GFP Commission Amends Nest Predator Bounty Program Dates for 2021-2022

PIERRE, S.D. - At their January meeting, the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks (GFP) Commission amended a resolution to the Nest Predator Bounty Program for this year and next. The resolution indicates that the 2021 program will include a payment of $10/predator and a cap of $500,000. The amendment specifically modifies the dates of when the program will start and end in which the GFP Commission unanimously agreed to run the program from March 15 through July 1.

“The primary goal of the program is to enhance nest success for pheasants and ducks at localized levels by removing primary nest predators, like raccoons, striped skunks, opossums, red fox and badgers from the landscape,” said interim department secretary Kevin Robling. “Furthermore, this program is designed to increase youth and family participation in understanding and experiencing the tradition of trapping while enhancing our strong outdoor heritage.”

Last year, 16 percent of participants were 17 years-old or younger. These families and youth participating in the program made lasting memories while making a difference for managing wildlife in South Dakota. To encourage even greater participation in 2021, GFP will provide a weekly giveaway for all youth (17 years-old and younger) that participate in the program. The giveaway will consist of a GFP-sponsored trapping package that includes three live traps, knife, and the National Trappers Association Trapping Handbook.

“Each year, approximately 75 percent of duck and pheasant nests have been lost to predation in South Dakota. Intensive and ongoing predator removal efforts on lands containing quality habitat are important for increasing nest success at a localized level and present an excellent opportunity for an outdoor experience the entire family can enjoy,” stated GFP Commissioner Bob Whitmyre.

GFP will also enhance the ETHICS SD program to reach new audiences across South Dakota. ETHICS SD is a partnership between trapping organizations, GFP and 4H where youth learn trapping skills, fur handling techniques, and elements of wildlife management. The program has doubled in size reaching 110 new students in 11 counties in 2020.

“The key to ensuring our outdoor trapping traditions remain strong for future generations is educating and encouraging youth to participate in wildlife management,” said Robling. “We are excited to hear about the lasting memories these families make as they take to the field.”

The GFP Commission is allowing public comment on the amended program changes for the next 30 days and will vote on it at their March 4-5, 2021, meeting. To hear the discussion on this proposal, audio is available through South Dakota Public Broadcasting and on the GFP website under the meeting archive. Individuals can comment on this proposal by visiting gfp.sd.gov/forms/positions. Comments can also be mailed to 523 E. Capitol Ave., Pierre, SD 57501. To be included in the public record and to be considered by the Commission, comments must include a full name and city of residence and meet the submission deadline of 72 hours before the public hearing (not including the day of the public hearing).

Individuals are encouraged to share their trapping and outdoor memories by using #SDintheField on social media.

GFP has operated the Nest Predator Bounty Program for the past two years (2019 and 2020) with different program details/parameters (i.e. amount paid per predator, duration of program, license requirements, etc.) each year. For more details, visit https://gfp.sd.gov/bounty-program/.



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Racoons are a big problem. We are overrun with them primarily because nobody is trapping and coon dog guys are fewer. It is tough to stimulate interest when fur prices are so low. Most fur buyers will not even buy a coon unless it is a spectacular example. A recent fur auction had coons average $1.83.

This past summer my sister in law was working in the garage with the door open. A coon entered and attacked her inflicting wounds to her lower leg before she managed to hit it on the head with a hammer. Tested positive for rabies and she had to get the shot routine along with stitches. The results of runaway wildlife populations.

Just some information concerning scavengers not eating Coyotes. I am guessing that it probably depends what part of the country you live in. My experience here in AZ is they are eaten just as readily as a deer or rabbit.
I spoke to my brother this evening as he traps Coyotes for a number of ranchers. I asked what his experience was as far as coyote carcass’s. It is not unusual for him to catch 5 or 6 in a week. He stated that most Coyotes are reduced to bones in 2 days.
He added you would think that nothing would eat a skunk but they are cleaned up just a quickly. He added that ravens seem to particularly like Coyotes.
I am guessing that here in AZ we don’t have the abundance of deer that other states have and so our scavengers take what is available...

New snow last night and a new set of coyote tracks close to the house. Rifle and shells are at the ready by the door. If he shows himself and gives me 30 seconds to get outside he is in trouble.

phil maybe we need to trade you a few buzzards for some of them ravens...charlie

Attachment 92624

Attachment 92625

Attachment 92626

Not the ads we see today.

My contribution to good coyote:

https://i.imgur.com/Y70gycn.jpg

This one was crossing the dam on our lake. Amazing what a .270 with the right bullet can do at 110 yards.

We have way too many here in Southernmost IL. Our fur never gets good so no one really wants to spend the time trapping. Its basically shoot on site and yea, we use electronic callers.

They destroy deer populations and yes, they will kill adult deer, eat your small dogs and cats and can be a bit aggressive to humans and will kill larger dogs if in a pack of three or more.

Blew one off one of my setters several years ago. Dog came running back to me whining but did not see me and past me. Yote was about 15 yards behind dog. Yote met with a load of 8's to the head at 5 yards.

Done deal.

The Michigan bounty on red fox was $5 for a male, $15 for a female. Bounty was ended in 1963. The pheasant population plummeted from there on.

The deer coyote / interactions on the property I hunt is a mystery to me. I know the coyotes take fawns and probably adult deer, although I have never seen evidence of this on the property. Very often you can hear a coyote or two howling and yipping just after dark. But somehow the deer don’t seem to mind.

The property has many large fields, some of which have been planted with Timothy and some I plant in sorghum annually. Deer are out feeding in the Timothy and sorghum fields almost every night without fail and without regard to the coyotes.

The deer carcasses I leave in the woods after I bone them out are invariably gone the next day. Fresh snow reveals many coyote tracks. There is a healthy population of them using the property, yet the deer seem to co-exist without much concern. I would think the deer would be somewhat wary of feeding in open fields yet they are always there. I don’t know how to explain it.

Another note.....one thing that always bothers deer in the fields is airplanes taking off from our airstrip. I would think that they would be used to the planes but they always run into the woods when someone is taking off. I have a favorite Timothy field that I hunt most evenings that is about 200 yards from the airstrip with a short secton of woods seperating them. When the deer leave, they generally don't come back out that evening.

I tell the guys to get their flying in before my evening hunting but it doesn't do any good. They like to mess with me and once they took a bunch of pumpkins up and dumped them out over my field. They sounded like small bombs when they hit. Other times they buzz my treestand. I no longer say anything. But I get even in other ways.

What Pheasants Forever thinks of this effort:
https://www.pheasantsforever.org/Hab...Predators.aspx

Deer can’t stop living just because there are predators around. They are blessed with being dumb animals and likely don’t react at all unless they see or smell one. Neither are deer afraid of gunshots. To them there is no immediate danger in a gunshot and they can’t associate it with the possibility that there might be a bullet around someplace. Deer and coyotes coexist because there is rarely an immediate danger just because there are coyotes around.





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Deer are very in tune with what occurs in their habitat. They can pattern hunters and probably predators. Hunt from a particular stand too many times and they will avoid the area. I’ve experienced it many times years ago before I knew better. It’s why I never overhunt a stand and have multiple stands that I can use. When hunting the fields, I never leave if there are deer still feeding. My goal is not to spook them and make them aware I am in the area. Sometimes I have to sit till well after dark before I leave a field if the deer are still out. If you spook them a few times from a field they most likely will avoid it.

As far as gunshots, some run when they hear them, others don’t. A shot that is very close usually scares them. However, this year, while bow hunting, I was watching a three and a half year old buck with five does in the field with him. He had a wide nine point rack and was feeding his way toward me. I decided to take him if he came within thirty yards.

There is a horse farm on the southern side of the property about a quarter of a mile away. Someone decided to shoot a pistol. At the first shot, all heads went up. At the second shot, the buck bolted for the woods and the does followed him. Gunshots usually do scare deer, depending on the distance, although I was puzzled that they still bolted given the remoteness of the shots.

I think Steve’s post on what Pheasant’s Forever thinks of predator elimination is telling. It’s something I’ve always believed, if the birds have food and cover, baring regional and local diseases, they will do fine despite predators. It certainly holds true on the property I hunt.

Quotes from the Pheasants Forever article…

“Bottom line: Through the addition and management of habitat, we not only decrease the impact predators have on existing nests, but also increase the number of nests and population size in the area. This management comes at a fraction of the cost of other predator reduction methods.”

“Predators will continue to eat pheasants and their nests, but weather and habitat conditions will drive population fluctuations.”

Habitat and feed is key in addition to weather conditions. The main reason for the loss of ruffed grouse in parts of the Northeast is the decline of habitat. Grouse need young forests and brushy areas to survive. Making matters worse, the mosquito borne West Nile Disease has had an impact as a one two punch on the diminishing grouse populations.

For me Dean, thats an absolutely horrible picture. It's hard to look at. I hate that coyotes take dogs.

Coyotes are hunter-scavengers and will eat anything and everything they can get ahold of.

I have shot over and bedide deer on SC ranges while they continued to eat unconcernedly. Sure, being a range where shooting is the norm they had to get used to it (to just live) because the shooting never presented a threat to them. They don’t have the power of thought or reason.





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The deer that hang around my back yard in a suburb of Detroit, where no hunting is allowed, tolerate people well. Not so in northern Mich where hunting is OK. The least lttle sound or movement gets them going

When I shot them in Saskatchewan I used a .270 with 130 grain bullets, my moose load. It really chews them up similar to your coyote. I used the 130 grain bullet because it shot best from my pre-64 model 70. Moose die rather easily and that 130 grain bullet was all I needed. They don't go far after being hit.

Coyotes
 

News Flash: The state of Utah still has a bounty on coyotes of $50 a head, $50!

https://wildlife.utah.gov/predator-control-program.html

When I was in college in the late 70s in Idaho I made extra money shooting them at $35 each, just dead, sold to the skinners.

When people say coyotes will eat anything, I've seen them eating honey dew melons in fields in central California.

Great thread and interesting getting people's take on things.