The more I think about that barrel the more I believe those Winchester long beard shells may have been at fault. They use new technology that may not be compatible with the old shotgun's we love. They may have lead shot but that resin plus 1 7/8 oz of shot may just be a formula for disaster.

This is more great advice. Called them today. Thx

This is what I feared all along. I’m very cautious with my Damascus barrels and only shoot RST in everything else. I guess I figured modern ammo was ok in my Winchester magnum. Wrong by me.

Hi, not sure I understand your comment here. “We tried.?” Thx for clarification

Actually these would go to our local sheriff who has a system of disposing of unused ammo.

Galazan repair work
 

I've had to send this one to Galazan's after some of the others had their try.
Now, no problems.
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Holy moly- what a gun! Thx for sharing

My original post about the bridging of the Tungsten Matrix was on the assumption that they were used to kill the turkey. But do I understand that the Winchester shell did the damage? Either way, one or the other did or started the damage previously. If you had shot some of the Kents before in that barrel, the splitting could have been started by the large shot and the unforgiving resin packed Long Beards XRs finished it off.

But if you want to dispose of the shells, send them my way. They'll go through my Browning BPS, Franchi 912 Variomax, or Beretta Xtrema sewer pipes just fine.

Rick, my comment was disappointment that you didn't try to establish cause by dismantling the shells to determine whether the shot had bonded into a mass or to determine whether the powder charge was equal in all the shells in the box. I am very sympathetic to your situation. I have been trying to buy a cheap damaged set of Model 21 barrels for years, to mate with my cutaway Model 21, without success.

Larry, can you tell us about your pictured gun? It is outrageous in its engraving. Who did it?

21 engraving
 

Unfortunately, I do not know the identity of the engraver. Once I saw it I knew I had to have it. It has the most life like animal engraving I have ever seen on a gun.

Ok I did get that comment but as this has just happened, I have not got around to dismantling any shells. That is in my plans. Do you think before I open up the shells it would be prudent to contact Winchester ammo?

Winchester may want you to send them the remaining shells.... then what have you got?... Nothing.

If you contact Winchester ask if they will accept findings from an independent lab.





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OK that’s kind of why I haven’t taken them apart yet independent lab is good advice

This is a rough scan of Winchester's standard disclaimer on ammunition packaging. Was your gun "in good condition"? And can you prove it? Did you check the barrel for obstructions prior to firing this round? Or "excess lubricant"? If not, you have a slim case. Or none at all. Just my view of things...

Thank you Brian. I have been talking with Galazan

$5300 for a set of barrels seems reasonable. Sleeving is about $2K for both barrels plus extras. A new set of British barrels is well over $12K.

Ken

Or, you could buy another M21 for less than the cost of a set of barrels. Sleeving one barrel wouldn’t be cost prohibitive.

You might pm Dale Medders. Im sure he has a set of ejector barrels he'd sell you.
Chris

Late to the party here. What shell caused the problem, the Kent or the Winchester?

I’ve shot the Kent shells for several years with no problems and good results. I only shot one of these Winchester shells and it blew up the barrel. Based on several qualified smiths looking at the barrels I’m fairly certain the shell called caused the problem. I’m yet to hear back if Winchester will do anything about it. The realist in me says maybe some free shells. But I would be pleasantly surprised if the company would share in the repair cost.

Thanks. I believe a fair number of Fox folks shoot those kent shells out of their Fox Supers for waterfowl. I am not aware of anyone shooting the Longbeard ammo out of any Foxes (including me). I just did some searching on Old Gobbler (turkey hunting forum) regarding issues with long beard ammo. There have been a number of issues that have surfaced lately. First, is failure to fire. The second is a bad batch of Longbeards where the resin was too hard and came out much like a slug. Folks who were getting amazing patterns were instead finding cases where there was a slug like hole in their targets where the resin failed to shatter when going through the choke (which is what they are designed to do). Accordingly, there is a possibility that you have a box of ammo that is essentially acting like a slug, and that's what caused your issue.

What I'd recommend is mark every shell you have and then send some of those marked shells to Winchester and keep some for yourself for independent testing and also take a picture of the box and the marked shells together showing the lot number. I'd picture the heck out of everything and tell Winchester what you are doing (in a nice way). FWIW, this issue has been reported to Winchester about the Resin being too hard and not shattering as it was intended to when going through the choke.

Read this thread, it might be helpful: http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.ph...c,94113.0.html

That's very disturbing info on those long beard shells ,I have killed 3 or 4 birds with them but mine are at least 3 years old. I am using a Remington 11-87 with Rem.extra full choke tube. After reading that thread I am now sure those shells did cause that model 21 to fail.

OK thx. Like I said originally I’m really glad nobody got hurt but if there is a defective element to the shells I believe Winchester should step up. Pretty deep pockets.

I use the Winchester Longbeard Ammo for turkey hunting out of my Benelli SBE2. I can tell you they knock the SNOT out of you, and that is with an auto that is pretty heavy and bleeds off some of the recoil. They are very stout loads that I would not think are appropriate for anything but a modern gun. But I might be wrong.

What people don't understand is that Model 21 3" magnum barrels are the same barrels that are installed on 2 3/4" skeet guns. The wall thickness is the same in both, unlike the 3" Model 12 barrels, which are thicker and heavier. There may be exceptions to this rule, but every 3" Model 21 I have owned, including some that I still own, have been 7 1/2 pound guns, no heavier. I would not shoot a shell in my Model 21 magnum guns that had a name like "turkey", "heavy goose" or any such title. They are common thin barrel field guns made with good steel that normally holds up under stress, but not always.

I was shooting my M21 on clays today. I shot the original M/F barrels and the Atlas Arms barrels with thin walls. Both work perfectly, thanks to Lou Rotelli. I wouldn’t recommend home gunsmithing on a M21. It looks so simple, but isn’t. That was a lesson learned.

Rick, this is Jeff from Grand Rapids. Once upon a time I may, or may not have stuck a Fox sticker on your Jeep First, congratulations on the fine turkey and second, sorry to hear about the severe damage to your gun. Ouch! At least there were no injuries. Tom "vaturkey" was kind enough to share your misfortunate on the Fox Forum. I can't offer any advice, but I will say that I own a very light weight German Simson with thin wall choke tubes, so, it can be done. Jeff

Hey Jeff a.k.a. Mr. Fox! Good to hear from you this is the same gun I was using At the bo whoop shoot last year at Hausmann’s. I know you and I were there together. Hope to run into you again real soon