Spend time on the Winchester Forum and you will see I am correct. Hell, the Red Book of Winchester values differentiates from pre and post 1899 values. There was an uproar of sorts when it was determined that Madis' serial number charts included way too many Winchesters as antique and collectors paid a premium for post 1898 guns.

I've been to Baltimore several times.

Quality always brings a premium pre or post 1898.

You buy a ledger bound book, in it you list the date, make, cal/ga, serial number, who you bought from and then a who you sell it to if you do sell it or trade it. That's it so yes it's worth it to me and many other collectors. Go out of state to a shoot like the Southern see a gun buy it and give them a copy of your license. You have certainly taken this thread way off your original question

Okay, have I proved that I am correct? https://winchestercollector.org/foru...esters/#p92001

weight
 

Circle of life: as younger shooter you don't have the strength to carry a 12 and as you get older you don't have the strength to carry a 12!!

Ancient news. a few models were off by a year

As have I. This would have been my 25th anniversary had it not been cancelled.

At last you've said something I can agree with.

Ian,
This is the Parker forum. Perhaps it is just my impression but your tone is becoming increasingly argumentative. May I make a suggestion? Take this for what it's worth in today's .02 valuation....

Arguing with senior members of this board sells the experience you could be having well short of its potential. Many of the gentlemen that monitor this forum are genuinely interested in helping anyone with an interest in Parker guns. This is the place to come and listen, to learn, to absorb history from all aspects as it pertains to the Parker Gun Company, the men and their creations. This is a "low noise to info" forum where the members do everything they can to stay on track and provide solid information to help both novice and advanced collectors widen their horizons.

There are other online forum options if you're cruising for a conflict.

Kindness and civility will always be welcome attributes anywhere you go.

Have a great day!
Ken

Haha. It said so on the internet, so it must be true.:rotf: I'm only going by experience buying and selling for 60 years, Not trying to make me feel better about my old guns.
I would be happy to put 20% on some of my pre 1898 1894s if you've got the money. My wife says I have too many pistol grip takedowns with set triggers anyway. Make her happy.

Ian please go away.

Nice! What a wonderful welcoming forum!

Other forums are much less obtuse.

Congratulations, I was contemplating your Parker DH for sale if I don't snag the one from my friend. Perhaps I'll look elsewhere!

Y'all were increasingly argumentative and refused to even acknowledge that antique firearms might sell for more than a comparable one. Then when I provided at least a shred of evidence, y'all sneered.

What a bunch of self absorbed know it alls.

Ian, you were comparing apples to oranges when you insisted we adopt your tenets on desirability of "antique" Winchesters and apply them to our Parker collecting preferences.... it doesn't work and now we're the ones who are "self absorbed”?

We hope you find a nice Parker.




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The percentage of know nothings is very high over on the Winchester site, including, maybe especially, a certain moderator. You are using a poor example to prove your ridiculous point. I have been a "Baltimore guy" for more than fifty years and know a little about Winchesters and Parkers. On many sites, you would be known as "Are you a kid?". That is the suspicion of many of us here. "Are you a kid?" As our poster CL says, "Go away".

Ian, the GH was spoken for the first day it was posted. I believe the gun was priced very fairly. If the GHE you are looking at is in the same condition it should fetch more than a GH. I believe it should be priced in the $2500-$3000 range and that would be a "priced to sell" price.

And what is "are you a kid" supposed to mean?

My general impression of this forum is it's clique, a bunch of good old boys who spend all day putting "likes" on their friend's posts.

Look around you, folks! Wake up. The gun collecting world is full of grey haired folks. Some day you will have no one to sell your Parkers to. Being condescending doesn't help.

I seriously doubt I'll renew my "Parker Pages". Now that Parkers have become more affordable for middle class folks, like me, I thought I would develop an interest in them.

I think I'll see if I can purchase my friend's GHE and maybe I succeed, maybe I don't. And then call it a day.

This group of Parker collectors is just way too snooty for me. I'll stick to my smoke filled American Legions and VFWs where I fit in, once social distancing ends. I'll be sure to wave as you pass by in your Rolls on the way to the country club.

Ian...you got some great advice in several of your threads/posts and decided not to listen(or didn't like the answers). I would use the energy you are taking in telling this group that they might not know what they are talking about and go get that GHE.

Show up with a bottle of whiskey and some documentation from this forum. It seemed to me you were more focused on a good deal instead of a good Parker. If the range in value is 2-3K and you paid at the top of the range it may be worth if you really like the gun and the seller is a friend. The ejectors do add significant value. I would explain you want the gun and like that it was part of your friend's family/collection...then close the deal. Many collectors like to see there guns go on to someone the know so that may help.

By the way, I might not put a premium on it, but I agree with you that an antique gun is icing on the cake in terms of transactional purposes. Get your CR License too...it's easy and all the big events and auction houses will accept it. Some dealers may insist on an FFL and that is their prerogative. I use my C&R all the time, every collector should have one.

I have learned so much from this group, but I try to listen just as much as I talk.

Get that GHE and start shooting it, you will glad you did...

I never considered a C & R license as the vast majority of my stuff is pre 1899. It is something worth considering I suppose. The potential for an ATF audit has held me back.

The C&R is well worth the money if you buy a lot of guns that are 50 years old or more. And if you buy more than one gun on it, it has paid for itself. You may run into some fuss with sellers that wont accept them. But most do.

The ATF would have to really have nothing to do to audit C&Rs today.
The last time I had an audit for my FFL (which was after being in business for 8 years mind you) the investigator told me that his office, which covers half of our state had not visited a C&R in about 15 years. Before that they were only supposed to visit 3 per year.

I no longer have a C&R but did at one time.. I have a good relationship with the FFL who I use, and they are only about a couple of minutes drive from my house.

But, when I did have my C&R, I was audited by the ATF within the first 6 months. So never say never.

Ian, in my humble opinion you are laboring under a misconception. I have been around this group almost from the beginning. There is a mix of fairly successful folks, and commoners like me. This is not about your station in life. This group has a common interest in guns in general, and Parkers in particular. The typical vehicle will be a well used pickup truck, or an SUV, not a Roll Royce.
We welcome newcomers, and offer guidance and knowledge freely. I'm sorry to hear that you got the wrong impression. This is fixable, or at least should be.
First. Understand you are in the midst of a very down to earth group. Don't make sweeping generalizations about a group this large.
Pull back, buy your Parker if it works for you, and ask questions based on the quest for knowledge. You won't be disappointed.

Ian, good luck on your purchase. Parkers and this forum are great. While I am significantly on the young end of our forum's age spectrum, I have been able to have a membership to CCA, WCA, and this forum. Even made it to the CCA convention in Dallas last fall. I enjoy collecting the others and actually have more Colts and Winnies than I do Parkers, but this is the only association I have put in for a lifetime membership on. I haven't purchased a parker in close to a year, but I am happy with my 4. This is a great forum with tremendous knowledge and is very friendly. Some members get a little more defensive than others about postings but it is a good crew. I find it far more engaging than winchester collectors forum.

I encourage you to find that parker and buy it if it interests you. I purchased a nice VH 7 or so years back that has turned into 2 DHs, a CH, and a CHE I dearly love each of. All 12 gauges.....ok technically one is a 10 ga with a 12 ga barrel added at the factory
Fine guns and I am more than happy with them. Not a boat anchor in the bunch. I have shot a multitude of brownings, Remington, and winchester shotguns over the years and not a one including A5s, 21s, superposeds, model 12s, 870s, 1100s, or whatever else I have fired have matched the shootability of my parkers. I heartily encourage you to try it out if you have the interest.

One point you may be missing is that the E on your GHE adds a pretty good premium for MOST buyers. Personally ejectors vs extractors doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me.

General advice is to buy the best parker you can afford. It took a bit to get me to understand that and stop buying whatever junker parker I could find or easily afford. They just eventually pass down the road and are more of a pain to sell.

Again, this thread has riled and ruffled some feathers on both sides. But if you stick around you will find we are a pretty amiable bunch.

Regarding premiums for age....I would not pay a premium for a pre 1899 parker. It's a nice bonus on an internet buy, but nothing quality wise....Now I might pay a premium for a 3 dog DH or CH but that is another matter.

Stick around and help keep this alive, you'll get to know the ones to avoid and you'll see some of the same attitude from the same people on other sites, so it's just not here. I've seen a good number up and leave due to a few here, hate to see it happen! There are some really good guys here.

Sure, every site has folks on it with attitudes. However, I have to say this site takes the cake when it comes to bad attitudes. I wonder how many folks have been driven away over the years because of it. Every person interested in Parkers drives up demand and a potential increase in sale price when one wishes to sell their rusty relics in order to fund their retirement. Why, then, discourage it?

Being completely closed minded when I present a point of view with evidence to prove it and then being told to "go away" when other forum members are proven to be wrong is not exactly a warm welcome.

But I intend to stick around. I have thick skin...

Ian, Running back to a Winchester site, and soliciting ONE responce doesn't PROVE anything. Bona fide sales, and auction results is a much better indicator of relative value. Keep in mind, 1898 was an arbitrary date chosen when the 1968 GCA was implimented. There is no one particular relationship in guns manufactured prior to, or after that date. Colt had very many fewer changes to existing models, and the first generation SAA ran for 25 years prior to, and 45 years after 1898. There are lots of 2nd gen guns bringing more than first gen guns (Buyer trends and whimsy?)
Lots of Special Order feature from Winchester didn't come out until after 1898.
I will grant that many people get an attitude towards government, big brother, when it comes to going on record (4473,etc) buying a gun, but buying a gun without paperwork doesn't impart any additional quality to the gun, making the GUN more valuable, only a value to your individual preference. No different than buying a gun from a guy down the road because you didn't have to go to the other side of town, using more gas.
Do some more homework and the C&R license. It makes life much simpler, even for the casual collector. There aren't many 50 year old guns that concern the BATF guys anyway.
I won't argue that I can get my back up, just like guys on any forum. I haven't spent two minutes on the Winny forums in years, partly because they have as many opinionated people as any other site, and partly because, despite accumulating a lot of Winchesters, they don't get my juices flowing like a nice Parker (12,28, hammer or hammerless). I collect the Parkers, Colts and Winchesters, because they are Connecticut guns. Not a coincidence that those three makes have far fewer swings in value, and overall, always trend upward, some moreso than others.
I'm glad you're sticking around. You wound me up right from the getgo by using words like Gospel, Definitely, like your statement is cast in stone. I don't give two shits what you think about old people, but we were young once, but you haven't been old yet.

Edgar, you have a wonderful way with words. Thank you.
Ian, stick around. Life with Parkers only gets more interesting.

Well, you are obviously set in your ways! The easiest way to quickly confirm my hypothesis was to create that thread on the Winchester Forum. Multiple publications confirm this as do threads on the Colt forum as well. A comparison of recent auction sales, although time consuming, would likely prove the same.

Maybe shotguns are different. Purdeys are often refinished and not scorned, maybe Winchesters and Colts are different than Parkers.

I did some research about the Gun Control Act of 1968 previously. I had previously believed that in 1968, 70 years was determined to be antique, leading to the question of why wouldn't a 1950 production gun be an antique today. It has nothing to do with age but rather capability. The Mauser 1898 action was deemed "modern", but, due to a clerical error, the cutoff was 01 Jan 1899 and not 01 Jan 1898, gaining an extra year of antique status.

Makes sense. Someday an AR 15 will be 70 or 100 years old and they ain't exactly quaint.

You started off comparing a Fox Sterlingworth to an Ithaca 5E as far as price goes. Thats an apple to oranges comparison.
The gun market as a whole is in a slump not just 12 ga guns. I have a BHE live bird gun thats been for sale with a reputable dealer for a long time as well as an upgraded Parker A1 special 28ga two barrel set. I was going to take both guns back at the Southern, then The NE shoot but as both have been cancelled I'll wait a while longer as I hate shipping guns.

I wouldn't pay $2500 for a GHE 12 when a gun such as Craigs DH can be had for less. FWIW I know Craig and he's an honest fellow who sells a gun for an honest price. If you want the gun your friend has my suggestion is take a fifith of his favorite beverage and when it's about half gone ask to see the gun, start haggling price and walk away with it if it's what you want.

That's a very valid statement! That very nice DH for $1850 makes it quite difficult to shell out much more than $1500 for the GHE. What's going for the GHE is it's local and I've had it in my hands, and the owner did not insult me, LOL!

Under the influence of Old Grandad is likely to get me further. Have to wait for the state stores to open.

I am, and have a pretty good library of experieces in order to rule out what doesn't appeal to me. Ya get that with age.(And NOT being an Alligator; ALL mouth, and NO ears) I've done the English smoothbores, and double rifles, the German combination guns, and quite a few military guns. It came down to the Wichesters, Colt, and Parkers. All the rest was fluff.I think a sampling of one is not really what they call statistical analysis, but this running back and forth between here and the WACA forum is entertaining:corn::corn::corn: I'm sure you can find publications that support your opinion. I see lots of opinions on Parkers, right here. Much of them are personal, and somewhat supportive of their own belief their collection is "worth" a certain amount. When it's all said and done, what they actually trade hands for is the only real test. Same holds true at auctions, and all you have to do is look at the recent past of Morphy and Julia auction liquidating the Petersen collection and several other large collections. There were some beautiful 1873 & 1876 guns, pre '98, but there were many more of his guns bringing high 5, and 6 figures that were made in the 20th century. I have years worth of their catalogs, but only because they're too pretty to throw out.
That's a very good question, but don't ever confuse people who write these things with someone who actually knows stuff.If I'm not mistaken, there was no C&R license category in 1968, so a gun was either modern, or antique Why is the C&R cutoff 50years and not 70?There is a very extensive document defining what is "Modern", C&R Eligible, and "Antique". It's available from BATF. Especially useful in these days of toilet paper shortages. Guns are categorized, not just by their model number, i.e. 1898 Mauser, but also by year of manufacture.
The AR-15, and M-16 first came out well over 50 years ago, and AR-15s are C&R. The M-16 can be C&R qualified, but further controlled by NFA, so C&R eligible is irrelevant . Individual states may ban them but that doesn't alter their BATF designation.
Despite this deep and lasting friendship we've developed, this is my last comment on the subject as the thread has gone way off the rails.

Ian gun collecting is more than a dollars and cents endeavor in my opinion. It is a passion with many personal twists and turns, likes and dislikes. Much like acquiring art one man's beauty is another man's dislike. I would say 99 percent of the forum members are passionate Parker collectors and price is a consideration but not their primary concern. We aren't trading stocks, we are passionate gun art collectors. Many of us have way over paid the market price to obtain an example that satisfies our passion. We're not concerned about future returns, the satisfaction we get from living with and using these fine guns is our compensation. I am a baby boom generation guy and I am uncomfortable with the edgy dialogue that seems to be the status quo with the younger generation. Many seem to know everything and dismissive of grey haired people. I think the best approach is always to tone down the dialogue.

I dont think its fair to assume all the older members here who can collect nicer Parkers as rich snobs . I have seen this assumption before when it comes to expensive doubles in general . I have met many financially successful old fellows when I did quail hunts . Most were courteous and down to earth people . The old man who let me shoot his Purdey was as well and seemed excited someone took a interest in it .

Being 27 though I have realized alot of my generation expects to start out with everything , a nice house , fancy cars and whatever whims having wealth provides .
From my perspective though you build up to that over years of good fortune and a level head .

Amen to this post.

According to this thread, we the association, judge people by a number of socio-economic indicators so I will be transparent so we don't have to discuss whether I am young, old, or a snob. I will be 55 in a few weeks and I have exchanged tens of thousands of dollars with my esteemed fellow members. Yet, I am not independently wealthy and have much to learn from all of you.

I am also a new member who has looked for years without committing and rarely posting. Why, you might ask? The answer is complex, but this thread is a good indicator. I do not absolve Mr. Bojangles for his part in this discussion, but it appears to me we have implemented a mob mentality within this thread (this is not the first time). We have also gone so far as to tell Mr. Bojangles he is not welcome. I am embarrassed by this thread.

When I think of a Parker, I think of a gentleman. Perhaps, we as a society have lost decorum. However, we as an association do not have to succumb to the age of using a keyboard to engage in a conflict and bicker over semantics. I challenge us to be better than this.
Best,
Dean Weber

Amen please

Thank you for your kind words.

I will agree perhaps I'm not an angel, but this forum feels not much more than sixth grade where someone is bullied and their friends all cheer on the bully. As exhibited by those who did not want to acknowledge my opinion, even so called "experts" who were proven wrong, and all their "friends" acknowledge the true greatness of their most juvenile post.

Too bad that instead of having an open mind to ideas that differ from what one wants to believe, the response is just to make it go away.

Ian,
I see you are a veterinarian. Shoot me a PM and we can discuss hunting dogs.

I come to this site to learn, or share something. I think that is the mission of the PGCA.
I own a number of working guns that happen to be Parkers, and I love the exchange of knowledge, and sharing of beautiful guns.
There are plenty of sites out there that people can go to for a good fight. I happen to own one, and it's NOT the Shooting Sportsman site, if you know what I mean. (I'm not rich, but am a Luckydog)
On these pages, when snarkiness comes out, I disconnect. Not because I'm afraid of a fight, it's because I'm in someone else's house, and choose to abide by the rules.

I will wade in. First I like boat anchors, I call them shooters. All my doubles are used for hunting. Mostly salt water duck hunting which is not a good place for a high condition or high grade gun IMO. Where can I find a modern double of the same quality as a mechanically correct Trojan or Sterlingworth for the same price? Some pretty nice people here shoot boat anchors, I don't really care what my friends shoot and if they are my friends they don't care what I shoot either. My guns are not my investments, they are my toys, and over the years it's been win some, lose some. Maybe markets have changed and put more in the lose some column, so what, I had years and years of enjoyment with those for the difference. I have a 12ga Trojan I like to shoot sporting clays with, even more so than my GHE Skeet. Truth be told my friends don't look at my gun, good or bad they only seem look at my score at the end of day. Some days they are quiet other days they laugh. Try to have some fun with your boat anchors.

Some of us have shot with Pete and a few of us wish our ‘boat anchors’ shot as well as his ‘boat anchors’ do.





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It comes and it goes Dean, somedays the bug other days the windshield :rotf:

Right you are! I own a few Fox Sterlingworths and a few A Grades. Sterlingworths can still be had for around $500. Where else can you find such a BARGAIN, fine workmanship so cheaply? I even scored a really nice 16 gauge Sterlingworth for $800 a few years ago. And 12 gauge Parker Trojans aren't much more!