Sherman Bell’s factually based article makes much sense .

My friend Larry Potterfield sells gunsmithing equipment . Quite successfully .

Midway is good at selling tools. Turn a reamer with a tap wrench barrel held in a vise = bubba gunsmith.

https://youtu.be/l6yrnJIyjtU

William

Larry is no bubba gunsmith -- bubba gunsmith holds the barrels in one hand a dremel tool in the other.

A piloted reamer turned by hand can be a very precise way to lengthen a chamber or open a choke -- not withstanding the question of whether or not you should do it in the first place

A choke reamer that passes completely out through the muzzle tells me one thing...





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Problem with that reamer set up it indexes with a bushing on the inside of a barrel that was bent to regulate. Depending on a possibly crooked tube to run the reamer straight is a recipe for muzzles not concentric. Some barrels may be straight others bent a fair amount to regulate. Your eye can see a thousandth or two out of round on the reamed muzzle easily.

No good rifle-smith would ream chambers without dialing in the barrel true from the inside on a bushed rod checked both inboard and outboard of the lathes headstock. Then running the reamer in the lathes tailstock that’s perfectly in line with the bore. May well turn the finish reamer by hand with the lathe out of gear, its still held in perfect alignment.

Shotgun muzzle no different than a rifle chamber except a factory machine made single barrel is usually straight and no regulation issues to consider. Hand regulated double very different situation .

William

Aside from the fact that we've been discussing chambers not chokes here's a quote from a fairly well respected shotgun smith Mike Orlen:

"To lengthen a chamber and/or a chamber forcing cone by hand, you will first need to secure the barrel in a bench vise. I like to use a couple of pieces of 2- by 4-inch lumber and an old shot bag to pad the vise. Make sure the barrel is held very tightly in your vise because there is a great amount of torque exerted during this operation.

"With a well oiled and sharp long forcing cone reamer, begin cutting your new chamber by turning the tool clockwise. You will be amazed at how quickly a sharpened tool begins to remove material. After cutting no more than 3/8 inch, remove your reamer, brush off the chips, push a patch through the bore, re-oil, and resume cutting. Always rotate the reamer in a clockwise direction—even when removing it from the bore."

The entire article can be found here:

https://www.gun-tests.com/special_re...l#.XS2tI-hKi70

I'll just buy a gun in good shape that is original, and shoot light loads of the size shell for which it was intended...and continue to read these discussions with interest.

I know for folks new to shooting old doubles things can be confusing at times, and there's a tendency to want succinct answers to straightforward questions. As I used to tell my students: for real life questions there is no answer "in the back of the book," you have to do your own thinking and research and solve the problem yourself.

I’ll begin by saying that I like Mike Orlen and have been to his home and workshop and have had him do some barrel work for me and for other friends, and he does good work.

Nowhere in his article on chamber and forcing cone lengthening does he ever address barrel wall thickness. He only says that chambers should never be lengthened on Damascus or Twist barrels - he simply mimics the warning that is printed on shotgun ammunition boxes. This is added simply as a guard against liability claims... heck, even RST prints their classic shotshell boxes with this warning. We all know this is all bovine excrement as long as Damascus, Twist, and even ‘fluid steel’ barrels are sound and of sufficient wall thickness in the critical area of the juncture where the front of the chamber begins the forcing cone.

Come on Mike, you can do better....





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Looked at the link, while he mentions hand reaming most of the article and photos are about proper set up in a lathe. Not mentioned is dialing in the barrel true or measuring thickness were the chamber will be altered. No doubt in my mind he does the work properly with careful consideration to the individual barrels ability to be altered safely . Likely some editor cut parts out of his article and insisted he speaks to the home mechanic.

Don’t think for a minute Mike Orlean is using Plumbers methods to alter chambers and chokes. On the other hand the Midway video is showing how to ruin a double in order to sell tools.

Leave the barrel work to experienced double gunsmith, price of a blotched job, value, function, or safety, on a Parker too high. Even better stay with appropriate ammunition don’t make the gun fit the shell.

William

Hey - hey, hey.... whadda ya talkin' about?:eek:





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Not to argue ... but he specifically says to clamp the barrels in a vice using 2x4's and an old shot bag. Sounds like "plumber's methods" to me. I don't think blaming the editor for his words holds merit. Maybe you can blame the editor for the title: "Learn how to perform home modifications on your shotgun!" But the words in the body of the article are clearly Mike's. Easy to find out. I too have been to his home, had work done by him, and found him to be very friendly and professional. All it would take is a phone call -- but why bother? Padding a shotgun in a bench vise is a common high end gunsmith technique, as is using a hand reamer.

Opps no offense intended. We have a very good editor !

William

No offense taken - all in jest. :bigbye:





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Since I identify as a plumber I was highly offended by your implication that plumber techniques are somehow inferior.

Like the editor comment no offense intended, all plumbers please accept my apologies.

William

Just to support my contention that this issue (chamber length) is "confusing" -- check the article I linked to. The caption under the photo of the chamber length gauge reads: "As this simple chamber gauge shows, the chamber on this gun is short by today’s standards. If a 2 3/4-inch shell is fired in this chamber, the shell will open into the forcing cone, causing high pressure and damage to the shot column. The result will be excessive recoil and poor patterns."

That's the common misconception -- probably promoted by lawsuit phobia. As Scott Chapman noted in post #31 in this thread:

The google document that I posted was previously posted by Drew Hause back in April of this year. He wrote:

"Major Sir Gerald Burrard, The Modern Shotgun, Volume II, “The Cartridge”, 1955 3rd Revised Edition, p. 154 in reference to modern “star” crimped paper cases
“For all practical purposes any increase in pressure due to the longer cartridge case really does not exist provided the correct powder and shot charges for a nominal 2 1/2 inch cartridge are used.”

Obviously this applies to 2 3/4" hulls in 2 5/8" 12g chambers.

A summary of Bell's and Armbrust's study “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001 is about 1/3 down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

The pressure increase for one load was 1200 psi

But generally speaking, with an identical load but in a longer shell that opens into the forcing cone, the pressure rise is a mere couple of hundred lbs. p.s.i. and is so negligible that neither the shooter nor the gun even feel it.

For years I shot 2 3/4” AA trap loads in my DH with Titanic barrels with 2 9/16” chambers. Every shell I extracted from the gun after firing had pinched and frayed mouths, indicating they had opened way into the cones. Increased felt recoil from these shells was quite negligible and not a cause for concern... even for my oil-soaked stock head which, to this day, shows no sign of damage due to heavy recoil.

However, it needs to be reiterated that a shooter NEEDS TO KNOW THE CONDITION OF HIS BARRELS, CHAMBERS AND WALL THICKNESSES.



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12 & 20 G have settled on AA hulls for my “short” chambered Parker’s. They are about the shortest factory hull I measure them at 2 & 11/16. Measure fired not very precise but they work well with lightest published Alliant loads.

16 is were I am fussy about length. Parker Hammer with lightning cuts, Twist too. Use RST 2 1/2 new then reloaded.

Bit too long is gun specific my opinion. Some OK others not.

William

Finally got a copy of Bell’s article in the Winter 2001 DGJ. Very in-depth and interesting article—well worth reading if you shoot guns with 2 1/2” chambers. As a bonus there is an article about the 16 gauge Parker mentioned in WHF’s New England Grouse Shooting.

PS: if anyone knows how to rotate photos please let me know. I tried everything I could think of:banghead:

A summary of Bell's and Armbrust's study “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001 is about 1/3 down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

thanks for the repost -- some of the material is pretty funny:

1. Experts on Guns and Shooting, George Teasdale Teasdale-Buckell, 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=4xR...8C&pg=PA373&dq
On the subject of steel v. Damascus, Mr Stephen Grant is very clear, and much prefers Damascus for hard working guns. He related an anecdote of one of his patrons, whose keeper stupidly put a 12-bore cartridge into his master’s gun without knowing that he had previously inserted a 20-case, which had stuffed up the barrel. Fortunately, no burst occurred, but a big bulge, which, however, Mr Grant hammered down, and the gun is now as good as ever.

11. http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/....476009/page-5
I stood next to a guy who blew up an off brand gun with reloads There was quite the kaboom. The barrel flew about 20 yards behind him and landed up in a tree. Took us a while to find it because we were searching downrange. Amazingly, no injuries. He had been given reloading equipment by someone moving away. He had a press, some components, some powder in a plain brown bag, no scale so he used a powder bushing his friend recommended.

rotated photos from Sherman Bell article in DOUBLE GUN JOURNAL. (For method used, check your Private Messages).

A nieghbor is cleaning out her basement

Ron:
Interesting photo of the array from the lady’s basement.

Makes me feel humble and respectful.

I see about six or seven firearms represented by the various ammo there. Where do you suppose those guns are?





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I know where a couple are. The 22 hornet was a pre 64 Model 70 which the owner had re-chambered by Griffin and Howe in the 50's to the 222 Remington. That one is in my gun safe. The 20 gauge is still around -- it's a cased 2 barrel set Parker which the current owner is sitting on (i've never seen it and no nothing else about it). And the 12 gauge was a Fox something or other which was bored full and full. That one is probably long gone. I know nothing of the 32 auto or what the 22 blanks were used in. The 38 special -- no idea. Same goes for the 32 rimfire and the 30-06. If only these inanimate objects could talk ...

That picture Ron Scott posted of the page of “What Ever Happened to the Little Gun” prompted me to take a little ride about 3 miles west of my house in Andover to where the “Harnden farmhouse” once stood on the “Boston to Lowell” road (now route 38) just above the bridge (over the Shawsheen River in Tewksbury. MA). The Harnden farmhouse has long since been razed and the Tewksbury Country Club now stands on the former Harnden property. Route 38 bears no resemblance to the “Boston to Lowell road” these days either. In my picture the Shawsheen River bridge is just beyond the camera’s view around a bit to the right.

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Dean — interesting, I didn’t know that’s where Harnden’s farm was. I’ll be in Tewksbury this afternoon visiting my daughters and will check it out. I’ve had lunch at that golf course before but didn’t know what I was looking at... It’s hard to believe that was once good pa’tridge cover.