Jerry, a lot of valid points were made in this thread. Now I know that Damascus, Twist or Laminated barrels in good condition are very safe with many recently manufactured cartridges. On the other hand, I do not feel as though my manhood has been compromised by using RSTs or Polywads in my 2 Lifters and Syracuse LeFever. Sherman Bell's articles in the DGJ sold me on the strength of non-fluid steel barrels. I read everything I could about the subject and decided that my guns were worthy of a second lease on life.

sherman bell article/psi
 

What vol/issue of the DGJ was the article on psi for damascus, possibly where a shell was lodged in the bbl. and another one fired behind it to proove the strength? Thanks in advance, T.

All of these are "required reading" Tom

The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal "Finding Out For Myself" by Sherman Bell Vol 17: Issue 3 (Autumn 2006) p. 12, Vol 17: Issue 4 (Winter 2006) p. 28, and Vol 20: Issue 3 (Autumn 2009) p. 108

And BTW
Experts on Guns and Shooting George Teasdale Teasdale-Buckell 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=4xRmHkr7Lp8C
On the subject of steel v. Damascus, Mr Stephen Grant is very clear, and much prefers Damascus for hard working guns. He related an anecdote of one of his patrons, whose keeper stupidly put a 12-bore cartridge into his master’s gun without knowing that he had previously inserted a 20-case, which had stuffed up the barrel. Fortunately, no burst occurred, but a big bulge, which, however, Mr Grant hammered down, and the gun is now as good as ever.

I am not where I can grab my DGJ. There is another series of articles Nito for Black Powder by John Brindle. These wernin the first several years of DGJ.
Harry

[QUOTE
On the subject of steel v. Damascus, Mr Stephen Grant is very clear, and much prefers Damascus for hard working guns. He related an anecdote of one of his patrons, whose keeper stupidly put a 12-bore cartridge into his master’s gun without knowing that he had previously inserted a 20-case, which had stuffed up the barrel. Fortunately, no burst occurred, but a big bulge, which, however, Mr Grant hammered down, and the gun is now as good as ever.[/QUOTE]


Response:

Beretta 687 20ga with 28ga shell dropped into tube and then loaded with a 20ga shell. Happened in August 2010 in Georgia to the brother of a friend.

We have had quite a few inquiries about these DGJ articles over the last ten years about the strength of damascus barrels. I knew we have published detailed lists several times. A person could probably pick them up in the archives.

Drew, Glad you were able to remember the Volumes and Issues of the DGJ articles. I remember being stunned by the strength shown by Damascus in his torture tests.

I'm still trying to get over why Jerry jumped up and down on his Bamboo and Graphite Fly Rods!

OK, I'll have to tell the quick story about that jumping on the rods!
I was fishing a little out of the way stream, walked in about 4 miles on railroad tracks, starts to rain, here comes a guy walking back out. Pretty well dressed gent, looked like he just robbed the Orvis store. We stopped to chat for a second, he asked me if I wanted to have a bad day back in here fishing with a primitive tool like I had. I tried to talk to him about the beauty and advantages of bamboo, but he insisted it was a piece of worthless junk and proceeded to tell me as much. Said they broke when you looked at them. That's when I asked him to lay his graphite rod down on the rails and let me jump on it and he could do the same to my cane rod. He asked what the hell was wrong with me, I told him if the rod was so fragile then let's jump on each other's rods. He didn't go for it and that was that. He sulked away, the same bitter person I'd met 10 minutes earlier, just a bit humiliated. I regret doing it. I should have simply smiled and been polite and not gotten so redaxxed over the event. Some say I have a temper, I don't believe it!
PS. I bought a dandy Eagle grade Smith with the incorrect forend metal. Does anyone have good pics of an Eagle engraving on the forend metal you could send me? Thanks much, & sorry for the lengthy story.
One more PS. I think John Gierach, the Trout Bum had a similar condescending thing happen in a book of his.

Jerry was found on the stream thusly:

And I was found so:

Trout Bum- But Not "Trout Dumb"
 

Jerry- I have that great book, about 20 some years ago after a TU group trip to fish the Bow in Alberta, my best fly fishing buddy and ace seven card stud player gave me a copy. I'll look it up.

One thing they don't seem to teach in the Orvis and other fly fishing schools is good streamside manners- I gave up steelheading on the PM (Michigan- Baldwin area) some years ago for two reasons: (1) My old friend and mentor Merle T. Nolph had passed away- before that I always parked at his home, near Doc Green's bend and just about where the Baldwin Creek connects to the main branch- "Simmy" got me a permit pass so I could be on the PM R&G Club properties w/o facing a trespassing charge- (2) The Johnson's Orvis Lodge upriver- their guides were A-OK-, but some of their clients acted like they owned the river for the day, as they were paying for the guide fee-

I don't see where you were "off base" as the other gent made comments about your fly rod, etc first- But you are right, in retrospect- it might have been better to have walked away, shaking your head in wonder- As a long-time Leonard man, I know the cross section (like a guided bend test for API- and ASTM code welding) of a six-sided bamboo rod will stand more "gaff" than any hollowed out "soda straw" synthetic fly rod.

What gets me is all the high prices and hype for these graphite rods- and the distance casting claims- "Casting ain't Catching"--:cool:

Francis, did you ever meet John Voelker ( Robert Travers) up in the UP? If so, that had to be a treat. Great stories. My grandfather used to fish for steelhead up there with a 9ft Heddon Thorobred, which I own today along with his Parker. Always wanted to go fishing up there. I talked to Bob Summers once and he told me about the boats and guides dragging heavily weighted streamers and roe sacks along the bottom as they drifted....he didn't consider that flyfishing and certainly not suitable for his rods. I have a Goodwin Granger Favorite model steelhead rod and hope to get up there sometime.

Fantastic cartoon! Charlie Kroll ( he wrote Pools of Memory and Squaretails ) was Fred Bear's son in law, and a very dear friend of mine. I have many of Fred Bear's personal items Charlie sent me through the years. I have both of Fred's Hardy reels along with a lot of other really neat items. Charlie and Fred were close friends of John's. John actually bailed Fred out financially at least once. Charlie was 87, had cancer 5 times, was not doing too well and decided to cash in his chips so he put it. I still have the letter he wrote me the day he took his own life. It sends chills up my spine every time I read it. I had so many good times with Charlie. He was a lot of fun and turned me on to the Cooke City area of Montana. In his books Pools of Memory I read about his trip there in 1950. He suggested I look up Bill Summers in Cooke City for a guided trip. I reminded Charlie it was 1950 and Summers may not be around. He called me a young smart axe and told me to call him when I got there. I did, and darned if Summers wasn't not only around, but spry as a young rooster at 70! He remembered taking Kroll up in the Bear Tooth range, they couldn't get Charlie to leave! Jerry

Only one time, Bruce- but what a thrill--
 

John Voelker, son of Irish-German brewer and tavern owner Nick Voelker- his mother's maiden name was Traver- so that's the "nom de plume"- but never got to drink whiskey sours and fly fish at his "Frenchman's Pond" retreat. He came down (someone held a gun to his head the rumor has it) from his beloved U.P. and was guest speaker at a TU Banquet- I got to chat with him briefly- when I mentioned I had owned a Morris Kushner "Excelreme" dry fly rod once, he light right up- I have several of his lesser known books as well as Trout Madness-- Danny and the Boys and the book detailing his start in the legal profession as a P.A. with Judge Belden in the 1940's-quite a writer, even before Anatomy of a Murder--

I also met Bernard "Lefty" Kreh, Mel Kreiger and even Ernie Schweibert, all from being a TU member back then- all these gentlemen anglers are gone now-

IMO- the best story John Voelker wrote about fishing and his hard fisted harder headed father Nick was featured years ago in an early Gray's Sporting Journal- 1977-78 maybe-- "Fishermen at Night"-- I still use his father Nick's term for a double shot- a "Doubler" was what he called a two of anything apparently- even a double header in baseball. Believe my favorite story of all, "The Measure of Silent Spirits" by Art Lee also was featured in that issue- both are great reads and I highly recommend them.

Heddon rods were made in MI- Dowagiac and Heddon, like Granger- (both Goodwin and later W&M- and even Phillipson as well) all had various grades, the main differences were cosmetic- the wraps, blued ferrules, reel seats, bags and tubes--I still have a 8 foot 3/2 W&M Granger Aristocrat 5 wt- also a pre-fire Leonard 7 & 1/2 foot 3/2 49 4/5 wt. I am keeping- I love the Leonards, but the comparable Grangers and Heddons were their equals in casting, function and fish fighting abilities. I have never owned a bamboo steelhead or salmon rod however.

I have known Bob Summers, as most all MI fly fishermen seem to-his rods are equal to the great Paul Young rods, but Bob apprenticed at the Young Rod Co. in Detroit. Lyle Dickerson rods, from Bellaire area of MI (near Bob's location on the Boardman, South of TC- are also "Steinways" but like the Paynes, Gillums and Garrison sticks, you'll write a big check to get an original one of those=- and the Parker Loman Hawes--wow, so few made over such a short time frame, and made when only bamboo was used for fly rods, whether a South bend or a Garrison-- I wish you the best of luck in your search my friend.:bigbye:

What a thrill it must have been to meet Charlie Kroll, Fred Bear, John Voelker, only Bob Summers remains. All right, another Parker guy and I went shooting today, him shooting a lightweight Mod 21 16 in high condition, early 30's gun, 26" splinter forend, DT, nothing bulky about it.....and we were making plans to backpack into the Bechler River ( SW corner Yellowstone) for a week come a year from now. Maybe a couple adventurous others?? Native cutts.

The Bob Summers I speak of is a different Bob Summers. This Bob Summers used to own the AAA Auto Court in Cooke City back in the 50's.
It's hard not to love or appreciate fine doubles and not bamboo fly rods. They are almost " bourn " out of the same fire. Jerry

I too will be back in that big country next year God willing. Maybe we'll have to cook up a trip eh? Jerry

Damascus barrels and bamboo rods. Two anachronisms. Maybe we are, too.

Well said indeed- both Jerry and Bruce
 

So much hand work and craftsman ship in our beloved older doubles, especially the Damascus barreled and also true with the bamboo fly rods- each maker had their own "secret" finish, other items we are still eager to know today in a world of graphite rods (aka- "lightning attractors") and autoloading shotguns with plastic stocks-:eek:

I was in Bob Summer's shop this summer. How anyone can turn out such works of art in such a cluttered, dusty shop is beyond me. Bits and pieces of rods scattered about - some new production, some old rods in for repair. How he keeps it straight is a mystery. Cast one of his 4 wt rods. If I wasn't so impatient, and unwilling to wait 3 years for delivery, I'd sure like to put one of them in my rod rack

There is a great mystery that surrounds the bamboo rod world and I must say, as maker, and a very anal retentive one at that, a lot of it is bunk. It's a fishing stick. A very pretty one, and one with class and style, but it's still a fishing stick. The tapers which seem to be such a secret are only a set of numbers. No patents can be applied, they are simply a set of numbers. I'll have customers ask me if I can build them a rod with the numbers they provide. I'll gladly do that, but once I run the " moments " mathmatically on that rod, see stress curves, etc, sometimes I'll advise against that particular taper. Often they want it anyway. I can see from the taper it's just not going to work. Usually the butt is too small to handle the tip dimensions. As much as I hate to say it, I find that situation in some pretty well known production rods, I'm not naming names.
I bought a Hardy 7'3" off Bob Summers, the thing has been used a bunch on brookies. I also cast silk lines, I just can run a poly line through a cane rod, plus, I love the sound & feel of silk coursing its way through a set of snake guides. Jerry
PS. My wait time is 6 months. I'd stack my rods against anyone's in the country. Not tooting my own horn, I'm just a careful builder that understands the value of craftmanship. Not really any talent, just gotta be hardheaded! Plus, I hand plane, do all the work myself, know my product when it's finished, as I've handled it from culm to finished rod. Hmmmm, sounds like a Bear Achery advertisement Kroll wrote for Fred in the 60's!

After reading the posts here on them and after decades of not having any bamboo fly rods I decided to remedy the situation. I first commissioned Dave Fuller to build me a 5-wt "Parker" rod. It will be oil finished and I am quite excited to get it some months down the road. In the interim I picked up a mint condition 7' Orvis Madison 3-wt complete with an Orvis CFO reel off Ebay for a what seems a good price. I was hesitant to buy something like that off Ebay but the seller convinced me I would like it once I felt it.... and they were right. I am in love! It is incredible. Very soft action, softer in fact than my 1-wt Orvis graphite fly rod, more like my 00-wt rod actually in power. I will likely try my 00-wt reel/line on it. It is absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately, it was snowing and windy prior to leaving the mine for home so I didn't get to try it out on the grayling in the Tulaksak River at Nyac. I am glad to be back in the bamboo game after all this time away.

Along another line, I was very anxious to get home to have a last visit with a very close friend who has bravely fought growing brain tumors for 8 years. I spent most of yesterday sitting by him with a hand on his shoulder and softly talking to him, telling him that things would be ok. 3.5 hrs after I left he opened his eyes momentarily and smiled at his wonderful wife then closed his eyes and slowly stopped breathing. She is convinced that he was waiting for me before leaving. What an honor it it's true. Losing such a close friend is painful but I can't help but feel very very happy for him right now. He fought the good fight and beat the odds for at least 6yrs past what anyone expected and died very well, at home surrounded by his friends and on is own terms. We should all be so lucky.

After reading your letter, I once again have the same chills I got when I read Charlie Kroll's letter telling me he was cashing in his chips. He fished the Ausable ( he lived right on the banks, on Old Dam Road ), came up, sat on his bench by the river, waders still on, laid my fly rod I had made him across his lap and ended his life. He had already put my letter in his mailbox, then he fished, so...very calculated and he knew what he wanted. Odd the last thing he ever did was fly fished. Jerry

Parker Hawes Rods
 

We have a very nice start on an article on Parker - Hawes rods for Parker Pages. The annual meeting will consume most of the winter issue. The Parker Hawes story may appear in this (Winter 2010) and the Spring issue, or in its entiety in Spring 2011. We have some nice photos of Parker Hawes fly rods but do not have anything on the tournament rod or the boat/bait rod. Parker began marketing Edson at the same time; does anyone have any Edson info; or a 1930 vintage Edson Tiger?

Thanks Austin

Are you referring to the fly or was there a rod by this name?

If the fly - light or dark?

Edson
 

Dean; in addition to streamers, Edson sold nets, leaders, fly floating solution and other tackle. Parker took on marketing of Edson's line at the same time they took on Hawes rods.Any commercial fly on an Edson card would be great.

Best, Austin

Thanks Austin. I've seen such items identified as Edson but I had no idea that the Edson Tiger Light and Edson Tiger Dark flies were associated with the tackle company.