Yes.

Back in the day, 10 bores were used as upland guns. We tend to think of them as waterfowl guns, and most of them are. But there are also light 10's around that were obviously built with upland shooting in mind. The market gunner Dee Slocum that I mention from time to time, hunted grouse for the NY city market with a 10 bore hammer gun with no chokes. That F grade 10 bore Lefever sounds like a real find.

Legh, I'll see you this week and you can show me that pretty little 16....





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The damascus question jogged my memory. A number of years ago I sent the damascus barrels of my Fred Kimble DH 12 to Oscar Gaddy to refurbish. While he had it he took lots of measurements of the inside of the barrels. As a result he discovered that someone (presumably Kimble, the "inventor" of choke boring) had done all kinds of reboring. That information didn't bother me at all.

for lunch?

The question about the .000 X .018 Lefever brings to mind my discovery about my grandfather's Lefever 1887 pigeon gun. I was devastated as a young man when I found that the right barrel on his gun was .000 and he was a dedicated pigeon shooter who owned his own ring in Hazleton, PA. On thinking about it, he was, according to my dad, a one gun shooter who was not known to shoot any gun except the E grade Lefever. The ANSWER is that northeast pigeon shoots in the early days were one shot events. The left barrel was used for competitive pigeon shoots and the combination of open and full made the same gun a great hunting gun. I never assume that a cylinder and full gun made before 1910 was opened up. I will later post my solution to the question about opening chokes. It always causes posters to accuse me of being uppity. The solution is "Learn to shoot". I usually follow up such uppity posts with an invitation to spend a day with me at my club, shooting full choke guns at skeet and sporting clays birds. It isn't rocket science, it's just changing to a different method of addressing the birds.

Following along the lines of shooting Sporting Clays with F/F guns as Bill mentioned I can tell you that when we shoot SC here we usually shoot 2 rounds due to the driving distance. Most always I shoot the 1st round with my go to SC gun which has interchangeable chokes and the 2nd round with a F/F Parker, usually a 34". I really cannot recall a single day when there was much difference in the score at all, a bird or 2 maybe, some times the F/F was the higher score.

In my mind, gun fit and mount are much more important than open chokes for most hunting situations. I would prefer a more open choke if available in some hunting situations, but center of the target is the same regardless of choke.

Sure. I'll call you to let you know which day. Could be Wednesday.... could be Thursday.... Friday I'll be casting dry flies to the brown trout Tom stocked in his pond a few years ago. They have never been fished and Tom says they're 12"-14" this spring. I'll pinch my barbs down so's I don't hurt 'em.:whistle:





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Bill. Randy and Chad summed up my opinions. A few of the pigeon shoots back in the day had a single barrel event along with the main shoot. Many pigeon shooters, myself included, shot a double with IC or LM in the right barrel and as much choke as you could get in the left. Many shot O/U's but the choking was the same. That way you could go from the single barrel ring to the main ring using the same gun. Shot size choices are another thing better left for another discussion.

Randy found out the same thing I did using tight chokes and lighter shot charges. My scores did'nt go down but actually increased. A win/win as far as I'm concerned.

And Chad, you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes a more open choke is preferable but the middle of the pattern is the middle of the pattern.

.....and the center of every target are exactly the same size.






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Some targets have feathers and their size varies. There is a question that does not pertain to clay pigeons and that is how many pellets do we want in a target we intend to eat.

But the point I made is that, regardless of your choke, your pattern spread or its density, and even if it has feathers and that you intend to eat it if you are able to bring it to hand, is that the center of each and every target is infinitesimally a tiny point and that point needs to be in the center of your shot pattern, or very close to it.

Some people believe that a more open pattern will make up for, shall we say, more 'relaxed' shooting skills.





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The bottom line is the center of the pattern should be on the leading edge of whatever you are shooting at, be it a clay target or, if it's a bird, the head.

Advantage of tight chokes we have not mentioned is pellet density on target with a tight choked gun allows lighter shot loads. Light loads = less recoil while delivering enough, not too many, pellets on target.

Anybody considering choke changes ought to spend time patterning before reaming.

William

I could not have said it better Mr. Davis.:bowdown:

I agree in most cases, but shooting grouse at ranges of from 10 to 25 yards is instinctual and in many, maybe most, cases in tight cover, you don't see a whole bird. What you see is a flash of bits of the bird as it flies through cover. In this type of shooting, any choke at all is a handicap. Improved cylinder isn't bad but modified and full in this type of cover hunting grouse is a real handicap. I pattern my grouse guns and also shot some modified and full chokes at 20 yards and for this type of shooting its a real handicap.


Unless you are satisfied with taking just a few birds per year, open chokes and light shot is the answer. I never knew a true grouse hunter (25 or more birds per year at the low end) who shot modified or full guns in tight grouse cover.

Over the weekend The Great Northern SXS shoot in Wisconsin had a grouse course which was set up with green targets through the trees at high speed. Just for grins I took a straight grip DHE 12 with 34 inch barrels choked .047 in each and did quite well with it. The gun handles wonderfully, isn't sluggish or barrel heavy.

That's interesting. What were the ranges? One of my grandfathers gun's was a 34" DHE. Like yours, it is a lively and great handling gun despite the 34" barrels.

Anywhere from 15 yards to 30 yards. It was fun with the tight chokes. I shot it with a 20ga choked IC/M and not a big difference in results.

I TOOK MY VH OUT WITH .35 AND .35 AND SHOT SPORTING CLAYS WITH IT RECENTLY. I DO NOT BELIEVE I MISSED ANYTHING BECAUSE OF THE TIGHTER CHOKES AND THE CLAYS DISAPPEARED IN A CLOUD OF DUST. I USUALLY SHOOT .013 TO .015 IN SPORTING WHICH IS MY FAVORITE CONSTRICTION

Full choke is amazingly effective on clay birds for those who know how to shoot. However, for bird shooting, I believe that the choke that best fits the situation should be used. In my mind that means cylinder or improved cylinder for 25 yards and under and tighter chokes for the average longer range birds. Full choke will really chew up birds such as pheasants and huns at close range over a dog. I use improved cylinder and modified for early season pheasants and modified and full for huns, sharptails and late season pheasants. I like 5's for pheasants for early and late season shooting. I use 6's for huns and sharptails.

I think you are spot on Tom. When I have a tight choke on the sporting clays field I often wait for the pattern to improve before shooting.