Or maybe just buy some Win AA 2 5/8" shells. The 1 oz AA ExtraLights are a delight to shoot.

You might have to call your local sporting goods store and have them order in several flats. Sometimes they don't stock them because they don't have enough recoil to cycle through autos very well , but the O/U shooters love them. But I've shot the 1 1/8 AA's at 2 3/4dre's also , little more kick.

The first time I shot a damascus barreled gun I approached it with trepidation....all the club house experts talking about how damascus would unravel like a spring, how the barrels would heat up and the solder melt, how black powder was so much slower burning than smokeless, how shells in a box marked 2 3/4 would cause drastic overpressures and this gun would blow up on me and shower shrapnel all over. So the picture is this: I put on an old military helmet, a pair of motorcycle goggles, a heavy jacket, boots, long heavy leather gloves, jeans with heavy Filson chaps....and its in the 90's, I'm sweating like a pig, holding the GH 12 at arms length with my head down. I pull the trigger and there is a pop, the gun jumps a little but and absolutely nothing unusual happens. It shoots with less recoil than the tank like Mod 21. So I shoot a few more times, then take off all the clothes that make me look like Ralphie in A Christmas Story, and shoot a round of trap with the other guys standing back. And this old gun just smokes em and its a lot of fun.

So, if you want to send me the 1920's GH, I can break it in for you , but it might take several years just to be sure.

2 5/8" chambers are made for 2 3/4" and shorter shells. By the way, mid 20's 12 gauge Parkers were commonly patterned at Parker Brothers with 1 1/4 ounce shells.

Bruce just mentioned the WW Xtra Lite 1oz. I have shot this load through an 1881 lifter with Twist barrels at the Southern. I reload this hull with WW 209 primers, Claybusters equivilent of WAA12SL wad, and 19.5 grains of WST (Winchester Super Target), 1 oz of shot for 7400 psi at 1180 fps. I shoot it through all my Damascus and Twist Parkers. The pressure is about 2000 psi higher than a 1 oz load with IMR 7625 powder, but WST is cheeper to reload.

Harry

:rotf: Bruce, That was exactly me last evening. :)

Okay I guess I'll don some proctective gear like, gloves, oil cloth faced pants and an old hat and see if I can knock some leaves off the aspens this weekend with the GH.

Bill, did you ever have the barrels refinished on your GH?

Bill, I was a bit apprehensive when test firing my Damascus LeFevers! I even took some external measurements to see if the barrels expanded. No worries! Even the reamed/honed 'G' Grade held up! Buck Hamlin chuckled when he told me that my LeFever barrels would 'take anything I stuck in 'em'. I don't recall if this statement was made before, or after, he endorsed my choices of cartridges, RST and Polywad. I plan on using my RBL most of the time when chasing the grouse. I have 2 lifters and a LeFever to rotate amongst when I get bored with the RBL. I don't anticipate firing thousands of rounds through my antique shotguns, so I think they will last a few more generations. Even though the barrels, Damascus, Twist, and Laminated, are stout, I like to lean toward the mild side with my ammo. If I ever decide to hunt bigger birds than Ruffed Grouse, I know that my guns will handle some stiffer loads (from the vast menu at RST!) Cheers!

The barrels I was thinking about refinishing were on a LC Smith but the gun just had to many other minor issues that in total added up to more work than it was going to be worth.

The GH, after lots of time with 0000 steel wool and oil to remove the fine layer of rust that covered it, cleaned up great. The GH was one a youngman inhereited from his grandfather along with several other nice guns. The youngman left in the plastic slip case and stored them for five or six years in his garage. All the guns looked like they were in high conditon when they went into the case and got stuck in the corner. When I saw them they all were covered in anice fine red/brown layer. It just about brought tears to my eyes. The bores on the GH when I opened looked like they had been honed yesterday. The wood look good and the gun was tight as a tic.

Here is a pic of the barrels after some work to remove the rust and some Formbys Tung Oil to coat them.

http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill/im...1/original.jpg

I think they look great with the age on the rest of the GH.

So this weekend I'll give it try. Hopefully I won't be typing with my elbows next week.

WOW :D they look great Bill, ya done real good. ;)
Maybe after you proof test her, and you still have a
shutter finger left, you can get pretty Ms. Wanda to model
that little GH :cool:

Mike, recoil is the weight of the powder,wad, and shot X the FPS- not pressure. Pressure has nothing to do with it. Just because you felt less recoil with the modern shell doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of pressure. BP loads always have more recoil because there's a lot more powder weight in the shell, hence more recoil. Paul

Interesting read by Randy Wakeman :)

SAAMI Shotgun Pressure Specifications


Shotshell Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) in PSI


10 gauge 11,000
12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.)
12 gauge 3 1/2 in.14,000
16 gauge 11,500
20 Gauge 12,000
28 gauge 12,500
.410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500
.410 Bore 3 in. 13,500

Pressure is discussed a great deal in a casual sense, but like most things unseen and unmeasured by most . . . little valuable information is normally imparted.

Lab data does not measure or indicate pressure in your gun. In the case of many factory shotshells, specific pressure is not discussed. In some cases, it cannot be reliably mentioned, as shotshells are marketed on the basis of performance, not SAAMI pressures. Shotshell manufacturing is a very competitive business; some shotshell makers (like rifle cartridge makers) have multiple approved recipies for the same shell-- the "why" is so they can buy and use whatever powder, many of them bulk or proprietary powders, that is found to be the most economical at the time. It could be St. Marks Powder one day, Nexplo the next, and ADI for the next run.

With shotshell chambers varying in length and diameter, exact pressure cannot be predicted. A simple primer change can change pressures by 3000 PSI. My friends at Accurate Powders / Western Powders inform me they have seen 5000 PSI changes just by a primer swap through their test barrels as recorded by radial tranducer.

Peak Pressure has no relationship to shotgun recoil, and so is not part of any free recoil formula. As published by Lyman and other sources: E = 1/2 (Wr / 32) (Wb x MV + 4700 x Wp / 7000 x Wr)squared.

Where E = recoil Energy in ft. lbs., Wr = Weight of rifle in pounds, Wb = Weight of bullet in grains, MV = Muzzle Velocity of bullet in feet-per-second, Wp = Weight of powder in grains.


Pressure, peak or otherwise, does not exist as part of free recoil. It likely won't stop those who think a tiny peak pressure node level equates to recoil, or enjoy speculating that that there is a relationship-- but there is no basis for it, unless we have a brand new branch of physics that attempts to now address it..

Peak Pressure, that always happens inside the shotshell, also has no relationship to pattern quality. Peak Pressure must always follow the base of the wad. When "pressure" is discussed, it invariably means only the peak pressure node that exists for mere fractions of a thousandth of one second. As its existence is so very fleeting, it cannot and does not illustrate the entire pressure curve-- nor even a substantial portion of it. Oberfell, E. D. Lowry, Zutz, Brister, Brindle ... no one familiar with exterior shotshell ballistics has postulated, much less shown, that peak pressure does anything to patterns one way or the other. If you follow the logical continuation of the discussion, a reduction of 3000 PSI must equate to something in pattern percentage. It doesn't, not one percent, and so the entire discussion moots itself in one big hurry. There is also nothing to show that higher peak pressure means more "open" patterns: if it did, every skeet load made would be at the highest MAP pressure possible-- quite obviously. Naturally, they are not. The peak pressure always happens inside the shell, before shot touches the first forcing cone, or the second forcing cone we like to call the "choke."

The bump up in pressure in the "newest" popular chambering, the SAAMI 3-1/2 inch 12 gauge, allows the 3-1/2 in. 12 gauge to effectively obsolete the 10 gauge when used with steel or other no-tox shot not subject to deformation. It allows a payload (or velocity) increase for the gauge beyond what can be had with the old 12 ga. 11,500 PSI MAP limit.

We all like to think of "pass / go" and "good / bad." We also have difficulty accepting that a "pressure number" is a vague one, contingent on our gun, our ambient conditions, and tolerance stack-up. Wad material variances affect pressure, crimp depth affects pressure, hull basewad variances affect pressure, lot-to-lot powder variances affect pressure, lot-to-lot primer variances affect pressure as well. It is a very vague if interesting number, unknown by most shooters in their guns with any precision, and has no effect on recoil, patterns, and assorted other attributes attempted to be associated to the tiny, fleeting little peak pressure node.

IT JUST NEVER ENDS :corn:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=3&t=209636


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=2&t=184155

Wow, early this morning I risked life and limb. I shot the GH and survived. It seemed to handle the 2 3/4" Winchester Targets 2 3/4 dram, 1 1/8 oz. 1145 fps loads with out a hitch.

Bill, that isn’t a sissy load as I found out last evening. I was using that same load with #8 shot (ones I have pictured) I sent a big old groundhog into the promised land from about 20 to 25 paces away. That hog reacted as if hit by a 45-70. I was very impressed to say the least. Those old 30” full and full choke barrels hold a tight reach out there and get’m pattern. :)

Mike, pardon me for being stupid, but what is a maximum average? I wonder if I fell asleep in college math classes.

Bill, I'm surprised you are here to tell the tale. No unraveling of the damascus barrel, no shrapnel, all fingers still? I suspect that a 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dre load with larger shot could actually kill a pheasant. I know, all the Golden Pheasant and Black Swarm and $15 a box manufacturers don't think so, but maybe I'll try it again this season.

Did I mention the Benelli auto that blew the barrel midsection? Yep, a buddy sent me the photo. His brother slipped a 20ga shell into a 12ga barrel by accident. Proof positive that Benelli barrels should not be shot.

Yes, 1 1/4oz at 3 1/4 dre, which is a stouter load than I care to shoot. Now that is a heavy load, and Parker made damascus 12ga's up until, what's the last one found, 1927? Parker marked them Overload Proved.

LOL Bruce, you got me brother, I have no idea. :)
The more I look into this Damascus barrel and pressure thing,
the more confused I’m getting. :coffee: My eyeballs are starting to bleed
and I have started on the second roll of duck tape around my head. :rotf:
I’m beginning to truly think this whole thing was indeed invented
by the big gun and ammo. manufactures to sell new guns and super
duper 4” magnum hit the moon shotshells. :rolleyes:

I think Mr. Bell showed that damascus barrels are pretty safe. That known, why does everyone say shoot low pressure loads ? Because we don't want to shoot the action loose and to show some respect to 100+ year old guns. It's better to be safe than sorry. I keep my loads under 7000 psi. One thing not discussed was low pressure means less deformation of shot = better patterns. Paul

Randy Wakefield's recommendation to have damascus barrels x-rayed or other NDI ( non destructive testing) procedure to find cracks was particularly strange. These are composite barrels, not homogenous, and all an x-ray shows is thousands of little lines from the iron and steel ribands that will look like cracks. So I suspect he is recommending something that he has never done or read the reports of being done on damascus barrels.

In response to Paul's comment, I don't know who everyone is, but I use the Parker shot and dram loads for the gauge, gun weight and period of manufacture as my guideline for shooting factory hunting loads in fluid or composite barrels and then back off at least in shot load for clays shooting. When I reload for clays shooting, I use moderate burn rate powders because I don't want the gun or my shoulder to get whacked. I don't specifically pursue low pressure loads, nor do many other people I know.

I suppose its also best for preservation of my vintage sports car to never drive it above 60 mph, but I like to know that I can, and every once in a while, I like to drive it to its capabilities, which in truth are greater than my personal comfort zone.

I've been pondering the safe to shoot Damascus question for some time. It seemed almost a silly question after awhile. Many English guns show current nitro proof stamps. Many people still are shooting guns without those proof stamps.

The people that seem to be in they are bombs waiting to go off crowd mostly are working from a friend of a friend point of view.

My GH Damascus was manufactured in 1924. I have feeling that Parker after 50 plus years would know by then if there was some inherent problem with Damascus and twist barrels. I doubt the first owner of my Parker spent a lot of time searching out "low pressure" loads. Likely he or she wandered down to the local hardware store and bought whatever 2 3/4" shell they could find with the preferred shot size.

When I bought my GH I bought it to shoot. The bores were excellent and untouched by a hone. The wall thickness was as it should be. There are no dents dings or pits. The barrels are on face. There are no cracks in the stock. I would have considered all of those things when deciding if a gun was safe to shoot no matter fluid steel or Damascus. My GH is a good sound gun. I'll shoot as God and Parker Bros. intended. I’ll keep it in proper working order and pay attention for possible barrel obstructions just like I would any other firearm.

In my job i do get to see plenty of shotguns with split, damaged barrels. We had a new 870 with a pretty good split and no more more choke tube brought back just the other day. A little mud will do that as the youngman learned.

Okay that was my ramble for the day. Now it is time to get ready and go to work. I have guns to photograph.

"Okay that was my ramble for the day. Now it is time to get ready and go to work. I have guns to photograph."

"Work"? Bill, you have one very sweet job. :cool:

Mike: you'll note the 'revdocdrew' fella did a little jousting with Randy on that first ShotgunWorld thread http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=3&t=209636

This is Randy's authoritative source:
Clark Towle http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/damascus_barrels.html
"I know of no true damascus barreled shotguns that were ever proofed for smokeless powder."

Nitro Proof 1 1/2 oz.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../375022549.jpg

"No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver."
The worst blindness is refusing to see.

Drew,

I have a Parker GH Damascus 10 GA that is proofed to 3 & 1/2 tons or 10,500 PSI.

I'll try to post a photo soon...

Mark

You haven't seen my pay checks, they barely covered what I was spending at work. It is like being a user and dealer at the same time. It keeps you broke but you keep going back for a fresh fix.

Drew, I've seen those two fellows pronouncements about all matters of gun things before, and their lack of documentation and absence of any proofs beyond third party hearsay and indefinite anecdotes. That's why Sherman Bell and his Finding Out For Myself series in the DGJ is a breath of fresh air in the gun expert game.

"...the gun expert game"

I do believe Bro. Bruce has identified the problem :(

Sherman punctured the balloon and let all the hot air escape.

:rotf: Good one :)

My Damascus Greener is Nitro Proofed for 2 1/2 ounces of shot in 3 3/4" cases. I guess I had better hang her on the wall.

I have subscribed to the DGJ for a few years. Mr. Bell's articles were the icing on the cake for me. My first Damascus gun is a 114 year old LeFever 'G' Grade 12 gauge. I satisfied my curiosity with books, the DGJ, LeFever website, and this website before I bought the gun, and had no problem pulling the triggers for the first time. It was a hoot, actually! I quit frequenting 'Shotgun World' for many reasons.

The 2010 raffle gun has nitro proofs.

I recently acquired a GHE in 12GA from a gentleman who grew tired of some of his hunting buddies concerns over his use of a damascus barreled gun. He sent it to Birmingham for proofing and a clean up of the damascus. (Came back brown, not black) BNP 3 1/4 Ton. His buddies got over their concerns. He shot many migratory and upland birds with that gun. Unfortunately, health no longer lets him enjoy the hunt and thus the passing on of some of his guns. I intend to use that GHE for opening day pheasants and hope to post some pictures of a successful day (that might mean some nice scenery shots and a sunset but a rooster or two with the GHE would be a bonus:))

Tomorrow, my wife, the dogs and I drive to Montana to pick up the plain twist under lever. While roosters don't open here until October 1, I will force myself to take a hike on our return trip looking for huns and sharptails with the .410 (not a Parker). I want to have a good look at the lifter before pressing into service.

Cheers,
Jack

Bruce, 1st what's an SL. When you tossed the shell in the fire was the expected result your pappy found out and had a talkin with you :) ch



Jack, I used to take a lot of pictures years back slr under stood it film speed f stop yahda yahda, then they made them into computers I kept shooting the slr (I don't need 1 of thoes goofy cameras) well here I am I want to put pictures on here so I go to wally world to get me one or use my daugthers what are the guidelines to get a good picture the pixles or what ever. Thanks ch

this is a bit of a wander from the OT.

The rules haven't changed when it comes to photography iso (film speed and grain), f/stop, shutter speed and such, it is still the same. If you have a good film SLR with decent lenses you may want to see if there is a digital body that will use them. Don't get to hung up on mega pixels when it comes to posting pics on the web. There isn't a current digital camera that doesn't have way more than needed when it comes to pixels. If you want to make wall size prints maybe more pixels matter and maybe not. Once we passed 3 mega pixels it just became a number for the marketing boys. The quality of pixels maybe another thing but that is a discussion for a good digital camera techno geek forum like DPReview.

Go with a digital SLR with a few decent lenses. Point and shot digitals most older film photgraphers find slow and frustrating.

Proof?
 

Jack, Mark, Drew; I think Jack's recent post frames my concerns rather precisely. Jack and Mark cite British proof of 3 1/4 and 3 1/2 Tons. If those are tons made of English pounds, and expressed as the force on English square inches, they are pressures of 6500 psi and 7000 psi. Metric tons and English square inches raise those numbers 10%. If they are metric tons and metric centimeters squared, they are about 15000 psi, comparable to SAAMI proof loads.
Measuring transient pressure, especially when the total event occurs in milliseconds, is not a precise experiment; the numbers quoted always have to be referenced to the time that the pressure is averaged and the measuring instrument.
That is the reason I prefer to choose a gentle load from a simple shot column length and shot speed. I know that a shot column 1 inch long leaving the gun at 1300 ft/sec is pretty hot irrespective of gauge; a shot column 3/4 inch long leaving at less than 1200 ft /sec is pretty mild.
I think RST tables back me up on this; 10 ga 1 1/8 ounce (.686 inch), 12 ga 7/8 ounce (.603 inch ) and 3/4 ounce (.520 inch), 16 ga 7/8 ounce (. 732 inch) and 3/4 ounce (.626 inch), 20 ga 3/4 ounce (.672 inch)and 28 gauge 5/8 ounce (.756 inch) all at less than 1200 ft/sec are without a doubt very gentle loads, and it is not necessary to quote pressure to verify this.
Incidentally, Parker, prior to the formation of the interindustry for runner of SAAMI in the 1920's, proofed by lengthening the shot column (adding more shot weight, not powder weight) according to TPS.

Best, Austin

TPS, Fig 12.16 , p. 515. Jack's gun, assuming 2 5/8" chambers, would have been proofed by Parker using charges that generated an average of 6.1 long tons and 13, 700 pounds and a maximum of 6.7 long tons and 15,000 pounds. Actual and theoretical service limits for ammunition intended for use in the gun are also provided. So if Jack goes down to the local gun shop and buys a flat of Winchester AA Xtra Lights ( 8500psi ) for example, he is 1000 pounds under the average factory load pressures (9500) for which the gun was built.

As another example, say that I want some 16ga shells to go pheasant hunting. I can handload, buy RST's ( which are great shells) or I can get Federal 1 oz Game Shoc loads at my local hardware store. These are 1oz, 2 1/2 dram, 1165fps loads and develop 7, 400psi. From the Fig 12.16 table, I know that my 16ga with 2 9/16" chambers was intended to shoot ammunition that averaged 10,100psi, so they are 2,700psi under the service working limit average. But these Federals are marked 2 3/4" on the box, yet only 2 11/16" when I measure the expended shell. So these shells are 1/8" over the gun chamber length, and precisely as Parker intended for good sealing.

Austin,
I've been studying this subject but for a while. I don't know enough to teach but for what it's worth:
- During the period when the British proofed in Tons (Long Tons) it was by the Lead Crusher Method. That was by a Government approved proof house. One would imagine that if for the British Gov't it would err on the side of caution.
- SAAMI uses the piezo-electric method which can be measured and recorded in micro-seconds if one has the equipment.

So... Shooting a higher pressure load than 8000 PSI in Parker Damascus (or LC Smith) is a personal choice. My daily shooting is with 6000 PSI in 12 and 10 ga which break targets just fine. I know the barrels will however withstand modern loads but I still reserve those for when I can't load a low pressure to do the job.

A good friend and member of this board made the classic mistake of loading shells with PB instead of the black powder which he thought was in the MEC powder bottle. PB looks like black powder. His barrel blew on the 4th shot. He later had the remainder of those shells tested. They were all far above 20,000 PSI and one was somewhere around 34,000 PSI. After that my friend now keeps all black powder loading equipment in a seperate room from his smokeless loaders and supplies. In life things happen... Then the rumors start which are always much, much worse than the actual event. Oh, my friend's blown gun is pictured in "Shooting Flying" by Murdelack (SP?).

I believe in moderation to preserve and only push to the limit when necessary!

Jack: could you please post an ultra close up of the barrel flats of your BNP GHE and thanks!

Bruce: in 2002 Tom Armbrust tested and the 16ga reloading group reported two batches of the old 16g Federal Game Load 1 oz 1165 fps at 9160 and 9633 psi. All I could get Federal to tell me on inquiry was "about 10,000" in order to assure funtion in autoloaders. It's called Game-Shok Game Load now http://www.federalpremium.com/products/shotshell.aspx

LTC Calvin Goddard writing in Army Ordnance in 1934, stated that Hunter Arms proof tested 12ga 2 3/4" chamber barrels at 14,300 psi.

Drew, I suppose that's possible. I got "about 7500" when I talked to the Federal people in person at Pheasant Fest and matching fps with the published drams. But the Fed hull is a straight hull noted for low pressure, they use Fed primers, and even with fast burning powder like Hodgdon Universal at 1165 fps the pressure is only 7500 and less with well known slow burning powders like SR 4756. So what powder Federal would use to push faster than a fast powder like Universal is unknown to me. Universal has the fastest burning rate of any powder made by Hodgdon that is suitable for 16ga.

I got a list of pressures from Federal years ago, I'll see if I can retrieve it, but I don't think their "above 10,000" is correct and may have been only to placate the autoloader bunch. I remember they told me that their 12ga 1 oz Gold Medal papers are at 8300 psi, also a long way from 10,000.

Maybe someone would send a Damascus Parker ten to Birmingham to have it proofed for 3 1/2" shells at 4 tons. I can't remember the shot weight of that proof, but I have seen more than one Damascus Brit gun marked with that particular proof. I think the shot weight may have been 1 3/4 ounces. Phil Futrel once had a hammer Purdey ten with that proof stamped on its Damascus barrels.