Todd, you would need to know this "collector of 'as new' guns" before denigrating his uncontested experience in the field of rating a gun's condition. He is probably without peer.





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Here are a couple shots of my "sweet spot" J.A. HANNAH gun courtesy of Steve C.
1913 1 Frame 32" 20 bore DHE
I embrace the scars!

Mark that is a really nice 20!

What a dandy duck gun!!





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Was not denigrating the statement nor impugning the nameless collector. Sure they know their stuff, was just amazed by it on such a narrow marginal difference as described by the suggested guideline. If doing the math is perceived as a slight to someones sensibilities, then I apologize.

I am also amazed on some prices people pay for collector cars. How many times do you hear about some rare piece sold at record price at Sothebys and the pre-auction estimates are blown away. Its probably a pretty good description of a niche market of limited participants that plays at tip top end of values that might not have a ceiling.

It just goes to show that there is range of values on things depending on perspective. Mentality of some collectors/investors is a no holds barred wrestling match on price as opposed to someone that is maybe a user/investor more grounded to market. Two different mentalities with different motivations. My point is that it just hard to reconcile between the two approaches. They are two distinct markets and was amazed by the metric as presented.

All that I have learned about collecting anything is that the value of an item is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, and that only takes one person to shell out the cash and when he sells the item it could be for a loss or a profit.
-Brett

The best way to learn about Parkers is to become a PGCA member, read the Parker Pages, obtain and study The Parker Story and attend Parker meetings. After several years of listening and asking questions a person starts to have some credibility in Parker knowledge .

There is truth in that. Market transactions are typically defined as prudent actions of well informed buyers and sellers acting in their best interest. Throw in an element of passion into that definition/discussion and things get spun off into an alternate reality of a different market and participants. I think that is what amazed me. Some collect guns they cherish to shoot, others collect just to cherish.

Dare say we are all hunters on this site. I am passionate about duck hunting just as much as the the next avid duck hunter, but if you calculated all the money spent in pursuit on a cost per duck harvested.... Do yourself a favor and don't. Wife is a CPA got shown that once.

Todd
I also was amazed but his estimate of value between 95% and 98% but have immense respect for his opinion as that is the area he plays in.
Rich
You are a braver man than I am! I took a $20K Italian 28ga gun shooting, tripped and snapped the stock. That cost me $10,000 . Th reason I am selling some guns is I do not shoot them because of their high condition ,as with the CHE 12 LBG I just listed
David

David I like to use them albeit carefully. I have had NIB guns before and sold them. In January while riding in the hunting buggy during our quail hunt Gunner's Gun suffered a deep scratch from a latch on the gun box. It really pissed me off but as soon as I got home it went to the smith and he made it good as new.
A couple of years ago I took a bad spill in the grouse woods with a CHE 20. According to TPS it's one of eight produced with 26 inch Damascus barrels. I bent my glasses and had a bruise on my arm from wrist to elbow but the gun didn't get hurt.

I'll have a couple of high condition guns to shoot at Drakes. Why save them for the next guy? Some heir might get less for them but ask me if I care:whistle:

The gentlemen you and Dean are referring to sounds like an expert's, expert when it comes to that "as new" niche market. I am sure in parlance of that arena there are distinct differences that make up a fine line between a 95% to 98% rated condition that has been alluded to. What sounds like something so slight or subtle of a difference to me seems to produces a big swing in pricing/value, and that is what fascinates me and if it is a consistent rule of thumb or an anomaly. I guess it depends if your a buyer or seller regarding your posture on a particular item. I am sure that multiplier could change as well depending on someone's wants, resources and needs.

Anyway a great discussion and learned something. One of my favorite quotes comes from an orthopedic surgeon that even in his 70's is at the top his game and cutting edge when it comes to sports injuries and treating them. All the pro athletes that have issues somehow make their way to see him when they have challenging issues. Instead of slowing down he is trying to expand the practice. When asked why he just said "If you aren't green, you're not growing"

Dave I was with Rich when he pulled Gunners gun out from the gun box, I must say he handled it very well... My Holland 28 was on the inside of that box so I was lucky (should have played the lotto ! ) But I hunted with Holland 28 for two days and enjoyed every minute of it. It's my most expensive gun but if I can't shoot it then I don't need it and that was the reason why I sold my collection of D grades (8ga through 410) that were 95% or better condition guns, as they just sat on the wall and I enjoyed them and I enjoyed the ten year hunt for them, but I couldn't shoot them so off they went to another collector who got to enjoy them.

I doubt I will ever have to worry about whether to use or not use my nib Parker. But, I really enjoy what I have. I recently acquired another 20 Trojan with an Ithaca pad on it that reads "PAT. APPL'D FOR", I just wonder how old that pad might be. It is a 1916 gun with the usual 100 years of wear but still in very good condition and comes to shoulder like a wand. May be just a Trojan but you gotta love a Parker!
The expert mentioned in this thread, John, is just that and a great guy to learn from. I miss the articles from the late Gene Hill and John was a hunting buddy of his. John told me a few years ago about a gentleman who came into his shop and purchased a nice 28 Parker, walked out and put it in the gun rack behind the seat of his pickup and drove across the railroad track by his shop with the Parker bouncing in the rack. I still wonder about that gun and what it looks like today. Love em and use em and the next generation will be glad we did! Met an old bear hunter this week who said he killed 15 grouse out of 19 shots this year and he might be interested in my new Trojan but, it is not for sale.

15/19? He's either lying or "Arkansawing" them. In either case, he doesn't need any Parker

That is a very impressive statistic and sounded like a heck of a grouse season considering this day and age. I would almost use the word inconceivable on numbers, but I have heard of recent similar success. Two years ago I was visiting with Jim Justice on a project, and he is a die hard grouse hunter. He has a private managed area in WV where he does his grouse hunting and he told me some of his numbers and they were on par, but his total harvest was higher. I asked him if that was normal and he said heck no, but he was trying to repeat it in the future with some active property management.


Also agree with the sentiment about these guns whether you shoot em or hold em back. I don't think I will ever own a gun that won't be employing to shoot, but have more than enough that I don't shoot as much as I would like, but having them is really great.

I prefer to call them “high percentage shots”...

15/19 - Hmmm! Ask him what brand of 22 ammo he prefers.

He didn't mention how many were flying. You may have guessed it. He did say food was hard to find and he found an area where they were thick but didn't find them at all otherwise. Like I said, I just met him and he said he lived in a rough area up in the mountains, you don't go there unless you know someone there. Definitely known for good moonshine. which can cause difficulty when counting grouse and shots.

Was he using leaf sights or peep sight??

I paid dearly for a 32" DHE 20 on a 1 frame many years ago and it has more than doubled in price. It sports a raised flat rib, straight grip and all the other goodies that come with a D grade. I know it's not a V grade but the bottom line is that 32" smallbores are very desirable. Grab it if you can.

Daryl has it right - we had a discussion at the Baltimore Show about the latent frenzy and mystique of the 20 ga. 32" guns, Parker, Fox, whatever. For 2-3 years I told everyone I suspected would encounter a 32" 20 ga. Fox Sterlingworth to alert me and I would pay what I had to pay for one. No Joy - so when the ex- Dana Tauber AE Fox 20 ga. 32" custom stocked gun came up in the last Julia Auction, I said to myself, "an AE to boot; GO FOR IT!! Moves and handles like a fine Tonkin cane flyrod, and lights up those targets!

Now find me a 34" 20 gauge DH and there would be no hesitation.

Well now I know where it went Kevin. I was on the phone bidding on that one right to the end, the very end. Hope you enjoy but if you should ever become shall we say "disenchanted" with it shoot me a PM,seriously....

FYI Mark Conrad has a very nice DHE 20 ga 2 barrel set, 28" & 32" for sale and he recently lowered his price. Not a lot of condition but a nice gun.
David

Thanks David but while the 2 barrel sets are appealling I always end up shooting one set while the other never gets used so I have "tried" to steer myself away from them. That and I have am lucky enough to have a 32" DHE 20 already.

Todd, I would love to hunt with Jim Justice. Can you get me in?

This one has it all, a ton of condition, 32 inch barrels, vent rib and it's a 16ga:)

Randy
I agree about 2 barrel sets.
David

Oh my Rich. That's a dandy combo. #1 frame possibly ? One more thing, you neglected to say what you wanted for it.:)

It is a #1 frame. Take your best offer, triple it then add 20% and I'll still say thanks but no thanks.:rotf: Here's what I will do for you. I'll have it at the Southern and will be shooting at Drakes Landing so if your coming and want to shoot it your more than welcome to do so. Leave your check book in the vehicle though as thats how I got it. I shot it and I bought it.:shock:

I would say that you are being somewhat narrow-minded about the whole thing but I have to admit that if I was fortunate enough to own that gun I would have the same exact attitude. Since you have been so generous to offer it up at the Southern I will just take you up on that, thanks. Congrats on a great Parker !!

C.O.B., my Friend, that made absolutely not sense to me? Is the gun for sale, at the best price you can get, or not?
David

Rich
Absolutely fantastic Parker!!!
David

David it was a poor attempt at a humorous no it's not for sale at any price.

Rich that was not a poor attempt at humor at all. I laughed out loud when I read it. I got it the first time. Just as my reply to it was meant to be humorous and I hope you took it that way. It is a great gun and I do hope to take you up on your offer at the Southern.

You and me both, along with the rest of the love of grouse hunting world. I think he spent a lot of time effort and money to setup and manage his little piece of grouse hunting heaven. Unofficial rule I gathered on his property is that hunting roughies is reserved for him.

When I was with him he was just starting his run up for Governor, but when grouse hunting came up, you could tell that was a real passion for him. I think quietly if he can during his stint he will try and promote more habitat management since I think he gets the way it should be done. But they do have other things to worry about in WV other than grouse hunting.

Here's a favorite. The 30 inch vent rib DHE 20. It's seen some use in the 17 years I've owned it and hopefully it will see a lot more. It's lost some condition over the years but thats ok by me.

Very nice 20 Rich!

Change of plans :) I just picked up a nice AHE 20 ga 30" damascus Parker. My VHE 20 ga 30" straight stock, 80% CC, all original Parker is now available. $9,500. It will be with me at Sanford

Whoa! Sounds nice