The "gauge" of a shotgun - or "bore" if you prefer - is determined by the number of spherical balls of lead of a particular diameter which will exactly equal 1 pound in weight. It doesn't matter if you're shooting lead, steel or aluminum, the bore size has been predetermined with spheres of pure lead. An eight gauge bore tells us that the bore is of a size that eight spheres of lead of that particular diameter will exactly equal one pound. A twenty gauge, on the other hand, will require twenty spheres of another particular diameter to equal one pound.

I have decided to post the letter I wrote to the Arizona Game and fish department that mirror the facts, and point that many of you also are expressing. I hope others will take an opportunity to challenge the 8 gauge laws in your state if they restrict the use of an 8 gauge.

Dear AZ Game and Fish Department,

I am submitting a petition asking to change the ruling that makes the use of a shotgun larger than a 10 gauge illegal for hunting in the state of Arizona. It is not my intention to have the Arizona Game and Fish department make any ruling as it applies to Migratory birds, as I realize this is not something that is within this departments jurisdiction.
I am respectfully requesting that the Arizona Game and fish department allow the use of 8 gauge shotguns in the legal harvesting of Big Game, upland birds, and predators.
I believe our AZ Game and Fish laws, and rulings are, and were written to provide protection to our natural resources and wildlife, and to best serve our citizens.
As with any law, or ruling they must be reviewed from time to time in order to make sure that they still represent the original intended purpose, and best serves our states hunters and fisherman.
If at which time the development of new technologies or as a state we become more educated with the facts. We are obligated to ourselves, and our future young sportsman to make changes that best serves the sportsman, as well as our wildlife.
The rulings to limit the use to 10 gauge shotguns or smaller, is one such law. I believe we should review as this law that restricts the use of 8 gauge shotguns. In turn allowing the sportsman in Arizona to be able to use these fine 8 gauge shotguns which are steeped in the rich history of our hunting fore fathers.
I hope I can share with you some of my passion for wanting to be able to hunt with an 8 gauge shotgun, as well share with you what I believe are the facts surrounding the performance and legitimate reasoning for allowing the use of the 8 gauge shotguns.
For as long as I can remember I have heard the stories of the 8 gauge, the preverbal “ Hand Held Cannon” The stories of the neighbor that pulled the triggers on grandpas old 8 gauge and how it knocked him to the ground. The stories of how in the “Olden Days”, whole flocks of ducks were brought down with a single shot. These stories may sound familiar. I would now like to try to separate out the facts from fiction and present you with what I believe will better describe the performance of the 8 gauge and why we should allow the use of the 8 gauge for harvesting game. I would like to first provide some information that might help explain how a gauge is measured and the difference between gauges.
The caliber of shotguns is measured in terms of gauge (U.S.) or bore (U.K.). The gauge number is determined by the number of solid spheres of a diameter equal to the inside diameter of the barrel that could be made from a pound of lead. So a 10 gauge shotgun nominally should have an inside diameter equal to that of a sphere made from one-tenth of a pound of lead. By far the most common gauges are 12 (0.729 in, 18.5 mm diameter) and 20 (0.614 in, 15.6 mm).
So while a 10 gauge would have 10 spheres to the pound an 8 gauge would have 8. Another way to look at this is the 12 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.729, a 10 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.775 and the 8 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.835. For comparison a Quarter is .065 thick when measured on its side. There is a mere 60 thousands .060 of an inch difference between a 10 and an 8 gauge.
Approximately 100 years ago when market hunting was legal, hunters used the best guns they could get there hands on. In almost all cases this was not done with a single barrel, or double barrel 8 gauge. Why? Because this was not the most effective firearm for the harvesting the largest amount of waterfowl, with the one and only shot that might be had that day, (or night). What was effective, was the use of Punt guns, mounted to the bow of a boat. The market hunter used a 2, 4, or larger gauge weapon loaded with a pound or more of shot. The boat was positioned and then discharged in to a flock of rafting waterfowl, with the hopes of taking dozens of ducks or geese for market.
Not surprising our country experienced dwindling game numbers due in large part to the lack of proper protection and resulting over harvest of wildlife in the late 1800 and early 1900’s. Our countries Sportsman, as well as our state and Federal Fish and wildlife departments enacted laws to provide protection to a country that was in dire need of protecting its wildlife. Thus assuring that our future generations inherited sustainable and renewable populations of wildlife.
History has clearly proven that our forefathers did the right things, to best address the unlimited harvest of game.
It is clear that at the time, some limits, and governance needed to be set in order to best address the over harvesting of Game. Many laws were enacted one of which was the Act of July 3, 1918; The Migratory Bird Treaty Act: Affords protection from commercial exploitation to both migratory waterfowl and other species of birds. This act expanded the duties of the "Federal Game Warden" whose existence began in 1900.
With the enactment of this Act there was a belief that there needed to be a restriction on the firearms that should be allowed in the harvesting of waterfowl. After all, if you suddenly want to change the behaviors of many of the hunters, who had grown accustomed to taking unlimited numbers of waterfowl, limitations needed to be set. During this time more then 100,000 hunters owned 10 and 12 gauge shotguns, yet there were only a limited number of 8 gauges ever produced by the American gun manufactures, such as L C Smith and Parker Bros. In fact there was only about 600 8 gauges ever produced by the American shotgun companies.
With this in mind and wanting to restrict the use of unlimited large bore shotguns shooting vast quantities of shot the 8 gauge was the starting point. Why, because the 8 gauge was not popular and not as widely used as the 10 gauge for example.
There are many that are more knowledgeable than I, that have studied the records and believe that the production, and use of the readably available 12 gauge auto loader, with a capacity of 6 to 8 shells did more to more impact the waterfowl population than the Punt guns or 8 gauges ever did.
Currently as it stands today Arizona as well as the other states along with the Federal Fish and Wildlife allow the harvesting of game and waterfowl with the 10 and 12 gauge shotguns. These guns, although limited to a maximum of 3 shells in the magazine while hunting migratory birds and waterfowl are well made modern and effective weapons in which the performance over shadows the yesteryears performance of the vintage 8. These modern 10 and 12 gauge auto’s not only have the ability to be quickly loaded, but are produced in 3 ½ “ Magnums which carry payloads equal to greater then the vintage 8 gauge,
These guns are loaded with Modern smokeless Nitro powders fired in modern barrels that produce velocities that far exceed that of the 8 gauge by a wide margin. This is not to say these guns are bad, they are effective in there design to harvest game effectively, and are a pleasure to hunt with, and are in a similar performance category as our vintage 8 gauges.
Those of use that own and enjoy shooting our 8 gauges not only enjoy the rich heritage behind these fine guns, but must hand load the ammunition taking great care to protect these guns from abuse. Abuse that would be experienced, if we pushed the limits on these fine guns in which many cases carry fine Damascus barrels.
I am one of those lucky enough to have found a fine W C Scott and Son 8 gauge produced in 1884. This gun hung on the wall of a local gun shop for many years, possible having been shot the last time in 1918. I fell immediately for the fine craftsmanship, and the quality of this shotgun. Clearly this was once a prize possession of one of our hunting forefathers. This gun although shooting very corrosive primers and powder clearly had been taken care of. The owner having taken great pride in assuring the Damascus barrels were cleaned and preserved for a future hunter such as myself.
Conclusion, I believe it is a fact that the modern 10 and 12 gauge shotguns being produced today out perform the vintage 8 gauges.
We now have game laws that protect of wildlife and set game limits. These limits clearly call out the requirement for the proper licenses and stamps. They also clearly define seasons, shooting hours, and the daily and possession limits down to not only the bag limit, but also the maximum number of each species a hunter can take.
Understanding this, our next concern should be with the ethical manner in which we harvest game while using the most effective weapons.
An example of using the most effective weapon is demonstrated in the ruling where as the Arizona Game and fish does not limit the maximum caliber of a center fire rifle a hunter can use on big game in AZ, ( The turkey being the exception), yet it does limit the minimum. This makes sense as we want to use a weapon that will effectively harvest a big game animal while limiting the unnecessary wounding of game. Using this same thought process it only makes sense that we allow the use of the 8 gauge for those hunters that cherish the idea of harvesting for example a spring turkey with their vintage firearm.
I realize the changing of this law may only have a small impact of those of us that wish to hunt with our 8 gauges in Arizona without traveling to those states that allow its use, but it is an important change. It is important I believe because it also sends the signal that we have representatives that believe rules and laws should be reviewed regularly to assure they make sense for the management of our wildlife future.
I want to express my sincere appreciation with the fast response from the Arizona Game and Fish department, when I first enquired about the process of changing current rulings. I had a response on the day I made the inquiry. Thank you for this.
I realize this letter and Petition is just the start of the process. I am sure this will take time before a ruling can be made. I have further attached some copies of information on the 8 gauge as well as the 10 gauge. In the meantime, I am willing to help support my Petition for change by supplying additional information, as might be required and would be willing to meet with the Game and Fish Department. If it would be beneficial, I would be willing to bring in my 8 gauge for inspection, or offer to meet at one of the Shooting ranges when the Game and Fish would be represented. This would allow the inspection and demonstration of my 8 gauge while allowing anyone wanting to experience the opportunity to shoot one of these fine vintage shotguns.

Sincerely,
Phil Carr
8502 E Calle Bolivar
Tucson, Az 85715
520-488-6085
couse3pt@cox.net

doesnt a 8 ga shoot 2-3 oz loads at 1100 fps ?

Phil, that is an outstanding testimony and a very "grass roots" effort to begin the process of change in the game laws of Arizona. It also gives us all a fine example of a well-written petition which includes everything the Game and Fish Commission needs to begin their review process.

realisticly though without anyone procducing at least 1 model of 8 ga i doubt this will work to well .now if i think if we sent some emails to someone like mossberg who make some doozy of guns right now (muzzlebrake shotgun an 22) ask them to make a 8 ga pump 3 1/4" or someone else just sends lots of emails

take 5 minutes to email or call csmc and let get them to start up 8 ga models . I would love to see s 8 ga A.H. FOX 35" barrels .their more likly to take it into consideration anyway before someone like remington or benelli

Hey Milton, did you bother to read and fully understand Phil's letter? He's talking specifically about allowing those few fortunate owners of ninety-plus year old double barrel shotguns to be allowed to use them occasionally in non-migratory hunting situations.










.

Maybe an ammo/gun company as first choice
 

-- I think you are on the right track, Milt- I have a Mossberg 835 pump- it is my "Black Ops" foul/fowl weather go-to waterfowl shotgun- But even if M'Burg said OK- you still need ammo-- Remington produces both shotguns (and rifles) and ammo.

From a practical side of things, even if the Feds rescinded the ban against the 8 ga. for migratory bird hunting, the weight of such a cannon, even with the modern metallurgy of today, and the cost of shells in non-toxic loads, even lead loads- for such a small potential market- I'm not 100% sure it would be viable.

IMO, waterfowling today, with the non-toxic regs, $1500 Binellis, expensive stamps, decoys- for a newcomer to get started and fully into the program, could be some major dollars- not like in my boyhood in the late 1940's- a Model 12 with a plug, a Olt call, tan coat and Jones cap, maybe hip boots and some Herter's decoys, duck stamp and some No. 6 lead loads- you were pretty much all set.

I would appreciate any sportsman today who hunts with a vintage 10 bore double, and in a perfect world, see no reason why such a gent couldn't use a vintage 8 bore as well, if he is lucky enough to have one in shootable condition- But realistically speaking, I don't see this as a priority issue today. I am a Sponsor member of DU, but can't speak for their BOD- if DU were to get behind this movement to reinstate the 8 gauge, perhaps it might happen- we can always hope so!:bigbye:

Heck if the 8 was reinstated and sxs even cheap one like the stoegers with at least 32" barrels though with a 8 ga i would like 36"'s . i wouldnt buy all the stuff life decoys calls camo or the feeling of being a doucher .

I would load up the mighty 8 with 3 boxes of shells get me a tradtion style boat maybe a wood canoe or somthing about 10' long with good paddles roe my self into postion and wait :bigbye:

Phil, that is very impressive. Congratulations. When I first posted this thread, I thought the wieght of opinion was against the whole idea but I've changed my mind. Your argument is very persausive. We should all copy your letter and send it to our Game Commissions. As I said origianlly, there is no longer a rational basis for the ban. Your letter proves the point. It shows that presenting actual evidence can make a difference.

I think the thing that people are having tunnel vision on, is that if the law was overturned, the only 8 gauge guns that are going to be used are the fine old Parkers...etc. that they happen to own right now. I think overturning a law like this is going to have consequences not many people are thinking about.

Other "primitive" seasons have been started with the best of intentions over the years, and IMHO are nothing like their original intentions. Look at the improvements over the years in archery equipment after the introduction of bow hunting seasons. An even bigger difference can be seen in the so called "primitive" muzzleloader seasons. The technology in the firearms is light-years ahead of when many of muzzleloader seasons were introduced years ago. The differences between a modern inline muzzleloader and a traditional flintlock or percussion rifle is like comparing a Model T to a Porsche 911.

I guess my only point is that if there is a dollar to be made, a shotgun manufacturer will develop a 8 gauge pump, that can throw a 90% pattern of 3 oz. of #6 tungsten shot at 80 yards. That is a big difference to what any of those old Parkers can do right now. I for one think that is going outside of what any of the supporters on this thread are comfortable with in supporting the use of 8 gauges. I for one think this is going beyond the area of fair chase. Just my two cents, not sure if anyone else will agree with me.

Well said Forest and I totally agree

The firearm technology point is new to this thread. No doubt Forrest is correct about advances in bows, muzzleloaders and shotguns. Folks are even shooting rifles at 600-1000yards tho that is not really new (ask the buffalo). I wonder if there are any studies to look at. I have noticed an yearly increase in the turkey, deer, hog populations around here. It doesn't appear the advances in weapons have hurt them them much. There are more then ever.
However, I still don't think it has anything to do with fair chase if they can be shot with a rifle anyway. A lot fairer to shoot at a deer with an 8 ga then my Weatherby .300 mag. I think sportsmen can decide for themselves what challenges they want. It's why I stopped long ago hunting deer with a .300 mag-didn't find much to it.

Very true, Ray !

I will never look down on someone who hunts deer with a scoped rifle (hell, my pre-64 M. 70 was my best friend for many seasons !), but now, I personally enjoy hunting with vintage guns. (My goal this year is to take a deer with my (ca. 1830) model 1816 Springfield musket (69 cal smoothbore, converted to percussion during the 1850's). The gun's a beast ! Only two things need to be mastered to shoot her well: consistent "sight picture" (like an old Parker, she only has a front sight - no rear sight) and overcoming the HORRIBLY HEAVY trigger pull (apparently, flintlocks worked best with STOUT main springs).

Any deer within 50 yards will be mine !

John, now that sounds like the way to go. I would't want to be a deer on the wrong side of a .69 cal. That has to pack more punch then the .300 mag-at least at 50 yards. Good luck!!!

I wouldnt care if they made more mnodern 8 ga if that what it takes to start making them again so be it i say . i would love a benelli semi auto 8 ga .then a tradition sxs .they are wanting to ban lead nation wide already . so people who dont want to use high density ammo like 5-10$ per shell will need a good patterning steel shot shell that hills hard . Like a 10 ga 3.5 with 1 5/8 bbb or t shot for turkey,coyote , other game .i know 8 ga ammo is probably about 15-20$ per shell but im speaking as if they made a modern 8 ga i doubt it would be much more than 10 ga ammo.you can fit many steel large pellets in modern shotguns shells like bbb,T, and F shot to get a good pattern like it would if you loaded it in a 8 ga less cripples i would think .

I am pleased to advise that The Florida Admin Code only prohibits the use of shotguns larger then 10 ga for taking migratory birds. A little hard to figure out cause the Reg Handbook doesn't clearly address the issue. You have to dig into the code itself to find a clear answer.
Anyway, now I need to find a 8 ga to turkey hunt with. Of course, now that I'm looking for one they are nowhere to be found. Pugilisi had some on his site but they disappeared over night! Julia had two but I didn't want to take the chance they weren't shootable. Anyway, I'll find one sooner or later.
Question: Is there anything I should look for out of the ordinary? ie is the min barrel thickness different? I have to find one I can shoot. Any tips would be helpful. Thanks, Ray

Ray: Session 3 Lots 976 and 977 at little John's coming up. The underlifter is pretty and the hammerless looks great. Both in 8 gauge. Wonderful looking guns. Opening bidl already set at 3+K$$ Where it goes, who knows

Direct link to the page.

They also have .410 16 and 12's

Enjoy.

Jack

I've pretty well sworn off posting on the forum but will chime in on this one.

To Forrest:

The USA isn't the whole world despite what people seem to believe. The gunners in the UK are perfectly within their rights to use shotguns larger than 10 gauge for waterfowling, puntgunning is even still legal there. The waterfowl populations on that side of the water have seemed to survive just fine even with these guns firing a them for the past 200 years.

The ammunition is expensive, the guns are expensive, they're heavy and hard to use. Most guys use plastic automatics for waterfowling there just like they do here. If big guns were made legal again in the US (which they never will be) there would be a few people who would take them up but not very many.

There was a time before steel shot when even the magnum 10 gauge was almost a thing of the past. I knew hundreds of goose hunters growing up in Southern Illinois and the guys who regularly used 10 gauge guns could be counted on one hand. They did gain some popularity again when steel came in but have fallen off in use somewhat since the introduction of the 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge.

Large bore shotguns aren't a threat to fair chase, the gun companies wouldn't all jump on the band wagon and start making them or the ammo to use in them. Think about this, when lead was legal and they were at their most effective, how many gun companies produced a 10 gauge gun after WWII? Other than the Spanish doubles and O/U's that were imported, I can only think of one, the Ithaca Mag 10. If everybody wanted/wants to shoot big bore shotguns why weren't they more popular?

And as far as somebody working up a gun that could throw a 90% pattern at 80 yards, how many guys do you know who could make a gun like that work for them? Long range shooting is for the specialist. I'm as avid a waterfowler as I know and even I with my magnum 10 gauge won't hardly take a shot outside 50 yards because I know I can't hit the birds that far away. There aren't but a handful of men in the US who could use a gun like that to it's full effect. Even if somebody made it what threat would it really be?

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, I'm back into my non posting mode.


Destry

Jack: Thanks. I did see them the other day. Barrels cut on hammer gun. Too bad cause it looks like a nice gun. Not many photos of the other. Says pitted. 2 Frame? Doesn't sound right. Hard to buy at auction cause you can't really tell what your getting. I'll have to keep looking.

Destry: Amen!

"Destry rides again"
 

Well said indeed Sir Hunter of the Marketplace. Have missed your postings, I have 20 years on you or more, and am also a die-hard waterfowler. I love to drop big birds with a 3" 12 bore (M12 or LC Smith with proper loads) but consider my eyeballed 40 yards to be "Max"--

I think those of us who shoot the big ten bore doubles are perhaps a bit of a "cult"- the eight bore (and I have handled your Churchill 8- what a cannon) even more so.

But I also sense the great spirit of American Independence here- perhaps in like token to one reason why I have a valid CCW for our State- when in past years each of the 83 Counties had their own arbitrary rules and regs- Because, as a Honorably Discharged vet with zero criminal record- shall issue, I seldom carry the S&W snubbie, but when I want to, within the limits of the law, I can- I see no harm or fault in allowing the 8 bore, as it was once legal- you could count on the fingers of both of your hands the number of men dedicated and die-hard enough to want to do so for waterfowl- most likely they would have to hand load non-toxic- expensive, but if it is their wish to expend the funds- I say- have at it Gents.

Good shooting to you and your friends this season- I'll be out early Sat and Sun morning- awaiting a Bluebird (not Bluebills) opener here--:bigbye:

So what's your point...we should legalize punt guns in the U.S. as well? Comparing the game populations, hunting culture, gun usage, between the US and the UK is like comparing apples and oranges. Gun ownership, and hunting in general, is much more exclusive in the UK, and their laws have evolved around their own unique situation.

As far as why the 10 gauge hasn't been extremely popular in the U.S since WWII has nothing to do with how effective/ineffective it was as a sporting arm. The 10 gauge (or larger gauges) have in the past been looked at as strictly waterfowl guns. Waterfowl populations took serious downturns during the decades following WWII. To understand why this is important to the fall in popularity of large bore shotguns, you have to understand the average American hunter during that time period. Hunting is a rural activity, and for most of America's history, hunting was done mostly by the rural population. Most people without money to burn could only afford to buy one gun to fill their needs. Which in most cases was a 12 gauge (hence the premium we Parker collectors pay for guns larger or smaller than 12 gauge). The 10 gauge was always a more effective waterfowl gun than a 12, but most people could only afford one gun, especially when waterfowl hunting started to decline. Anyone who has patterned a similar load through a 12 and 10, knows that the 10 will generally throw a better pattern.

Yes, the 3 1/2" 12 gauge almost put an end to new development of the 10 gauge (although Remington is now offering a new 10). But it has nothing to do with how inherently unpopular the 10 gauge is. The biggest obstacle to new development on the 10 gauge is the SAAMI regulation limiting ammunition to 11,000 PSI. When the 3 1/2" 12 gauge was introduced, this limit was raised to 14,000 PSI for the 12 gauge. This was requested mostly by shotgun manufactures who wanted to sell their new Magnum shotguns!

A modern 8 gauge represents something essentially new to the hunting world. Turkey hunting has seen a huge increase over the past couple decades. And yes, using a modern 8 gauge that can throw a 90% pattern at 80 yards of #6 tungsten shot, would be a highly effective turkey load, and is not something many people would consider fair chase in a shotgun only season.

My whole point is that if there is a dollar to be made, a shotgun manufacturer will develop a new 8 gauge to satisfy those with "Magnumitis", if the bans are lifted, especially if the SAAMI limitations are raised in proportion to the gauge. My fear is it would lead to controversial hunting situations that we can not predict right now, and harm the sport in general. I just don't understand why this is even being brought up as an issue, but I guess I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Sure why not make it legal here in the US again. It would be no threat to waterfowl populations if that's your big concern. Nobody would do it, just like hardly anybody does it in the places it's still legal such as the UK. It's very very dangerous, out on big open water in a tiny boat with a giant iron pipe of a gun weighing you down. You'd have to use non-toxic shot, a pound or more of tungsten matrix would be pretty pricey don't you think? What few punt gunners that are active in the UK maybe average a shot once every three to five trips and they only make maybe that many trips in a season. It's as tough a shooting sport as exists on this planet. What few guys still hunt that way do it out of a sense of tradition.

As far as the shooting sports being much different in the UK than here and it being "much more exclusive" you're absolutely wrong. They have somewhat more stringent gun laws than we do but it doesn't cost anything to own a gun other than the small fee you pay for your permit. Anybody can hunt and own firearms, you don't have to be the Lord of the Manor. Last time I checked, my close shooting friends over there were a greenskeeper (lawn care service), a diesel mechanic, and a security guard. They're all waterfowlers, all shoot their share of driven game, all own several guns, and all are just regular guys like you and me. There are rich people that hunt and places that are expensive to go but there are plenty of shooters and shooting opportunity for working class people too.

The Ithaca Mag 10 was made up into the early 80's, we're not talking about 50's era rural American here. It was never popular or in widespread use. I just don't understand why you think an 8 gauge pumpgun would be? Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple. These three ounce 80% pattern shells you're talking about would be $10 each or more. How many guys are going to drop that kind of money just to try and pass shoot a goose at 80 yards?

Might be something for the specialized turkey hunter who only shoots a few rounds a year but for waterfowling they just wouldn't be practical. As far as fair chase on those birds, lots of states in the west allow you to turkey hunt with a rifle. You can kill one with a .243 a whole hell of a lot further than you could with any kind of shotgun even a 4 gauge with these super shells you've got worked up in your mind.

This is all just conjecture, the ban will never be lifted. If it was ever proposed and the liberal media got ahold of it I shudder to imagine what kind of lies they'd make up if we're getting these kind of responses from actual gun owners and sportsmen.

[QUOTE=Destry L. Hoffard;25335]

Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple.

QUOTE]



Then what the he@# are we all doing here on a website that is about collecting antique Parker shotguns?

And if you consider my responses lies, like those that you imagine that would be told by the "liberal" media, I guess I take that as a compliment coming from a "sportsman" such as yourself who opened up his post suggesting lifting the ban on puntguns.

And as far as using rifles for turkeys, in some areas...just because something is legal, doesn't automatically make it right, or ethical. Right now baiting is legal for deer where I hunt, will I ever do it, no. Each of us needs to make their own decisions on what they deem is right and wrong, even if the law permits us to do so.

Now we've probably strayed too far off topic, but I think this is a healthy discussion. It brings up larger issues surrounding our sport, and many of us have voiced our opinions. It's clear we are not going to change each other mind on this topic.

Oh and by the way. Here is a link to those make believe shot shells I made up in my head. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot...Tz_stype%3DGNU

the 8 gauge should be legalized in my opinion...it is as said a very good water fowl gun....our fore fathers had to pick out somethingto make illegal so they done away with thebig guns....it was notthe big guns that was reducing our water fowl into skinking numbers but it wasus hunters that had no limit set for us......we as humans at that time did not think we were wiping out the things we loved to hunt but we were the cause not the big guns...all we needed as hunters was a little guidance a a bag limit......charlie

We're all on here because we like shooting game or clays with vintage shotguns. We're such a small part of the overall scene it's like we barely exist. About 99.9 percent of the waterfowlers I know, and I know a bunch, want their plastic automatics and the cheap steel shotshells. They're interested in hunting and killing game, with them it's the sport and not the "how" unlike with the guys who post here. When you go to Cabela's all the guys are looking at the Winchester Super X-2 or whatever is the plastic automatic of the moment. They aren't in the Gun Library looking at Parkers when they think of a new duck gun. Just the feeding of these vintage doubles as waterfowling guns is cost prohibitive, that's why it's getting hard to even find the Kent TM in the stores. Nobody is buying it anymore because it's gotten so high.

For years everybody in the US thought that if you even held a nitro powder shell next to a damascus gun it would blow up and kill everybody within a five mile radius. The British boys always got a big laugh out of us over that one. Finally folks in the US have come around due to the research done by Bell and Armbrust. Guys want to rail against the folks in the UK because one out of about 500 fowlers has some kind of old large bore shotgun that they take hunting a few times a year or that they still can shoot ducks over bait and sell them. It's all different strokes for different folks really, I'm glad I've been over there and done those things. I'm able to attempt to dispel some of the myths that have been created over the years.

You're obviously getting all wound up because I'm disagreeing with you on some of these points you're trying to make. I'm just trying to state some valid points myself not trying to wind you up. I'll leave it alone and go back to my non-posting status. Sorry I got involved really, it's just not worth the effort most of the time.

Believe me, you're not getting me wound up because you disagree with me, lumping me in with the liberal media might have a little more to do with it. :cuss:

Best of luck to you, and I hope you get a chance to do some waterfowling this season with whatever gun you decide to use, which preferably might be a fine old Parker. I know I'll be out there with mine :)

My real point here is this whole man bites dog scenario that's being cooked up with these responses. "Oh my God Billy! If they make 8 gauges legal then everybody will use an 8 gauge and they'll kill every duck and goose that exists so there won't be any left for me to shoot!" There's a limit, it's 6 ducks where I hunt at, what difference does it really make how they're taken as long as the shooter enjoyed himself and obeyed the law?

That's the core of the matter, as long as nobody is harmed then what real difference does it make? I'm not that big a fan of bow hunting, I think a lot of deer get injured and suffer a lingering death by guys who don't practice or know how to hunt. But I'm not going to get up on my high horse and suggest that bow hunting is wrong. I'm all for it! It's hunting and I support hunting in all it's various forms throughout the world. When you start outlawing particular things it's the long (and sometime short) road to outlawing it all. When you get one hunter telling another how he should do it and that how he's doing it is morally wrong, well..... that's exactly what the anti-hunters and the liberal media love and want to see more of. That's what will kill the sport that we all love so much, not the vague chance that 8 gauge shotguns might ever come back into use.

Here's the classic example. I grew up hunting doves in Illinois, I moved to Michigan and there's no season on them here. Few years back the state did it's best to institute a season on them. The liberal media went to work and I actually know hunters and gun owners that voted against it. And you know what, it worked just like they wanted it to, we don't have a dove season here in Michigan and we never will because of this sort of disagreement in the ranks.

So anyway, rant over I promise. This is pointless and it's wasting time I could be spending stringing up a dozen new bluebill decoys I just got.


DLH


P.S. I only shoot a Parker at ducks and geese for the most part. I've been out with them already. My season runs till mid-January then another two weeks on geese late Jan into early Feb. I get out quite a bit have no fear.

Geez, look what I started again, although I think it's worth the discussion.

Forrest, I have no bone to pick with you and respect your sense of sportsmanship, but saying even if something is legal it's still unethical is just plain wrong. Unethical to who? Who is setting these rules of ethics? You say "each of us must make our own decisions" but question our ethics even if we engage in a legal activity? If it's legal it's ethical. I Like you said, we are free to make our own choices. If you're more sporting then others, I respect you for it. There are some things I choose not to do that are legal. I live in Florida and hunting turkeys with a rifle is legal. I choose a shotgun cause I like calling them in. I could hunt them in the fall but don't do that either. I don't kill Jakes. But I don't consider those who kill Jakes, use rifles or hunt in the fall unethical.

Charlie, Francis and Destry have it right. Last time I checked, we still lived in America-the land of freedom. I have no interest in buying a "modern 8 ga" (whatever that is). I'd like to get an old 8 ga. Figure out how to get some ammo. Lug it to the turkey woods and see if I could hit one with it. That's much more challenging then shooting it with a rilfe, which, again, is perfectly legal.

Punt guns: They were used by market hunters who sold their ducks. That was their business. No one is in that business today. It's illegal to sell migratory game-at least here in Florida- not sure what the feds say about it. Like Destry said, no one would use them even if they were legal as they have no real use today.

It's time to rethink all this stuff. If you don't want to use a 8 or 10 ga or rifle, that's up to you, but disparaging others as unethical for engaging in legal activity is not a way to have a meaningful discussion.

I haven't heard anyone mention that there was a problem with procuring ammo for an eight gauge until the last few posts. When my late uncle sent me my grandfather's E Grade Lefever pigeon gun when I was about 10 or 11 years old, my dad told me that the gun had "soft" barrels. I had no idea what "soft" barrels were, so I started reading. I read that the barrels were "Damascus" and should only be shot with black powder. My dad's friend in New York, Bill Lea, a serious gun collector, sent me a loading set. It was an old time BGI set with adjustable shot-powder measure, wad seater, and crimper. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to obtain wads, so, for a few years I used newspaper for wadding, a nail to extract primers, and a hammer to place new primers. Those shells worked just fine in the small quantities I used them. Eight gauge shells can be loaded in the same crude way if you lack some of the tools to load them. Wads are available from Circle Fly and all other loading problems can be solved with hand tools. Believe me, I have been loading eight gauge shells since 1969 and I have never loaded one with a loading tool that had a handle.

Forrest vs. Destry:

Forrest, you have the right to an opinion, but your "fair chase" argument is faulty if you think it's okay to kill a turkey with a rifle, and not an 8 ga. Now, if you want to outlaw rifles, that's a different story. This is much to do about nothing and really has nothing to do with "fair chase". Rifle, shotgun, bow-what's the difference so long as you're not shooting them in a cage.

And don't worry about gun makers producing 8 ga's. They could do it now cause my research shows that using 8 ga's are legal in many states for nonmigratory game. Why aren't they making them? Cause there is no demand!

Heck, if you think about it, we can even legally use punts guns for nonmigratory game. Fla regs say game can be taken with shotguns. Only limits are that deer/turkey can't be taken with anything smaller then 20 ga and migratory game can't be taken with anything larger then 10 ga. But don't tell Destry cause I don't want him to come down here with his punt gun and shoot my turkeys! (haha)

Men of goodwill can disagree and have different opinions. It doesn't make them unethical. You shouldn't attack a man's ethics because he has a different view.

You also keep saying "many people" would be "uncomfortable" and wouldn't consider using 8 ga "fair chase". Who are these folks? Who are you speaking for? It seems most folks here don't share your view. To these folks I ask: can any of you come up with a rational, factual basis for permitting turkeys to be taken with a rifle and not an 8 ga without questioning someone's ethics or merely expressing an opinion. I would honestly like to know if I'm overlooking something here.

If would read my earlier post I addressed the rifle/turkey issue. And actually the people who agree with me on the issue of the 8 ga. are the ones who have not overturned the law in the past 100 years. If the Federal ban on 8 gauge guns for waterfowl was lifted, new SAAMI regulations would be put in place making it possible for shotgun manufacturers to produce one. Like Destry alluded to, all it would take is an idiot news reporter holding an 8 gauge shell next to a 20 gauge shell, and it would spark a flurry of bad PR for hunters and hunting. The fact that an 8 gauge gun is not being produced right now has nothing to do with demand. Until SAAMI provides regulations on the 8 gauge the manufacturers can not produce one.

I hunt deer in Wisconsin where baiting deer is legal. A very large percentage of hunters (I believe it is over 50% in recent polls) feel that shooting a deer over bait is unethical, and I have no problem what so ever calling someone that shoots a deer over bait an unethical hunter. At this point it is still legal to bait, but very close to or more than half of all deer hunters in Wisconsin are against it. Unfortunately the pro baiting side has powerful (rich) supporters, such as retailers. And it is difficult to get a state represenative to introduce an anti-baiting bill. Baiting deer in Wisconsin is a black eye on the sport and done much to damage the image of hunting in the public's eye. And it's all nice and legal.

Whether we like it or not, hunting is a dying sport. The only way it will last to be passed down to our children, is to regulate ourselves and improve it's image to the public at every opportunity that we can. That includes standing up against something that we feel is wrong whether it is legal or not, especially if there is a high probability it will harm the perception of hunters and hunting in the public's eye.

I'm done

Forrest, and if you read my earlier post it had nothing do to with hunting migratory game. All I really wanted was some tips on what to look for when buying a 8 ga to turkey hunt legally. That turned into a discussion about ducks wherein you suggested that I was unethical. If you best argument is that the rule is sound because it's nearly 100 years old, then you don't understand that the reasons for it's enactment don't apply anymore. Again, I respect your opinion but you can't cite a rational basis for prohibiting turkey hunting with an 8 ga. Being unable to do so you choose to attack the character of others just cause they don't listen to you. I'm done with you too.

Now, can anyone give me a tip on what to look for in buying an 8 ga besides the usual?

I honestly don't think you have read any of my posts. Actually you were the one who brought up the topic of migratory bird hunting and the question of ethics in your very first post, and I have never once attacked the character of you or of anyone on this board, please point out where I did so and I will apologize. If you want to use your antique Parker with traditional loads for turkey go nuts, enjoy it.

The only problem I have with the entire 8 gauge issue is the possibility of a newly manufactured gun that is capable of throwing a huge payload of the new super shots at a range we have not seen before. Yes, having a shotgun that can kill a turkey at rifle ranges is a rational basis for prohibiting turkey hunting with an 8 gauge. And no, my own personal opinion is that rifles should not be used for turkeys. Did that clear it up for you?

It seems like you had your own idea of were this thread should go from the beginning and are getting defensive to the point of saying I am name calling and attacking your character because I disagree. Which I honestly don't think we disagree that much, it sounds like we are pretty much on the same page, I could care less if you use your Parker for turkeys, and it sounds like you have no intention of calling for overturning the Federal ban.

Anyway...hope you find the gun you are looking for. I know Puglisi's usually has some 8 gauges for sale, but it's been awhile since I've looked at his site. I wish I would have seen the Julia auction a bit earlier, it sounds like some really nice guns went for a great price. If you find a nice one, post some good pictures. Good luck

my 2 cents...
 

The larger than 10 gauge law is about as useful as a duck plug for a SxS !!!

It was the repeaters, loss of habitat and punt guns (in that order) that reduced the duck number.

Duckin' in MI,
Kurt

Forrest: You're right. You didn't say "Ray, you're unethical". You did say that hunting turkey with a rifle is unethical even thought it's legal. I guess I took that to mean hunting them with a 8 ga (legally) would also be unethical since you object to the use of 8 ga's under any circumstances. You also state that hunting deer over bait is unethical, which is also legal in some places. You have the right to call anyone you wish "unethical" but I don't see how we can have an honest discussion when doing so. I just don't think I'm unethical if following the rules. So if it was I who was being too sensitive, I owe you the apology.
As I said, people of goodwill can disagree over the policy. My post yesterday had nothing to do with the duck ban. I was merely looking for tips in buying a 8 ga. I do support lifting the ban cause it's out lived its purpose. The problem is that the left-wing fascist regulators have some sportsmen afraid to rationally talk about it in fear of being called unehtical. That's the way it works. If there is no rational argument for keeping the reg, just demonize those who support lifting the ban. Call them "unethical", or maybe even "baby duck killers". Whatever it takes so that us sportsmen will behave and follow their instructions. When we start disparaging each other, then they have us right where they want us.
It's an interesting topic. There are those who support the ban but I wish they did cause it actually accomplished something rather then out of fear we might upset the minority tree-hugger bunch. Sportsmen can't accomplish anything if we are silenced by the fear that they will take something else from us if we speak up.
Anyway, no hard feelings, right? My challenge is find to an 8 ga I can afford and figure out where to get some ammo!

Forrest, the amount of shot the eight gauge throws is not even related to this discussion. Nitro Cartridge Company sells a 3 ounce ten gauge load that throws more shot at a turkey than any eight gauge I own. My biggest eight, nitro proved at 2 1/2 ounces in a 3 3/4" shell is a good half ounce short of the Nitro Cartidge turkey load. Ray, you could have bought your new eight at Julias.

What masochist would even consider shooting a 3 oz. ten guage shell in a modern gun? (nobody would shoot them in a vintage gun, I'm sure) I think shooting an 8 ga. Parker would be some fun and at something like 15 lbs. would absorb the vast majority of felt recoil. I say "have at it" to those who wish to use an old 8 ga. for hunting, where legal of course. Somehow I don't think I'd like to lug one through the grouse woods though :eek:

There are two 8 ga. parkers on Julia's "did not sell - make an offer" listing.

Thanks, Dean. I didn't know they were no sales. I'll have to check them out again. You seem to know a lot about min wall thickness. Are the specs the same for 8 ga's, ie min .035?