Andy, I shared your cost per pound estimate with Elaine. She said, based on her experience with me, you got a real deal.:)

Gotta be a smart shopper Garry. You'll learn grasshopper... :rotf:

I have to agree with you Garry. I would estimate my cost per ounce of grouse to be in the $8000 range. It is worth every dime!

There is a great Jeff Foxworthy skit where he is telling his wife that his deer meat he brings them is the most expensive and fine meat on the market . . . And its all for you and the kids. A little thanks would be appreciated

Wish I’d used that strategy. :banghead:

You listed the one I have wanted since I discovered Parkers; DHE, 16 GA, O frame, 26" steel barrels.

Nah, William, you wouldn't want this old thing.

Use BP inserts and you won’t need to roll crimp.

Next time I'm down there Mike I'll pick your brain on this. I think I tried but couldn't get a good crimp. The roll crimped and polywad inserts really produced a nice pattern but I'm so impatient...

Run your drill faster..

I’ve got enough Parker 16s that I occasionally find one I forgot I had

My Parker DH 16 gauge O frame. The first time I shot sporting clays the gun broke the
initial 13 clays. It was about 80% overall that first day.
https://flic.kr/p/2nH7Phz

I'll chime in since I have bought quite a few lately:

Parker 16 g DH 28" Damascus
Sauer 16 ga Hammer
Sauer 16g x 20 g rifle cape gun
Unknown German 16 g Hammer
German 16 g O/u combo gun
German 16 g Drilling
Sterlingworth 16 g (x2)
Ithaca 16 g Flues Gr3
Ithaca 16 g Gr 4
Ithaca Field 16 NID
Manufrance Ideal 16 g (Spectacle action)
Manufrance Simplex 16 g
Manufrance Robust 16 ga
H&H boxlock 16 g

And being shipped:

Verney-Carron 16 g
Browning Citori 16 ga

Truly my favorite gauge over many years. After shooting a well made 16, any 12 feels ungainly due to size unless heavy shooting. The secret is weight and balance. Modern 16's are generally just twelves with small barrels. All my 16's weigh 6-1/4 or less, except the combo guns etc. Many weigh in the 5's. I don't buy them if they are heavy. In truth, many 20's and 28's weigh more. I seldom shoot them with over 7/8oz and have seen no need to. I find the effectiveness of these as good as the 1 oz loads.

Edit
_____

Forgot the late 1800's Darne, the mid century Charlin and a 1904 Manufacture Liege that is a like new 6# hammer gun.

So, Art, what is the primary use of this great array of 16s? I find the 16 almost perfect for Bobs and grouse, but like something heavier for waterfowl and pheasants, and something lighter for woodcock, snipe and rail.

The greatest use is visual pleasure.
Past that, I truly believe they are the perfect upland gun. As I said, I generally won't buy one that is more than a few ounces over 6 pounds. A gun at that weight is easy to carry, and is dynamic to handle because the barrels have to be light to make that weight. I have quite a few 20 doubles and a number of 28's, which is my second favorite gauge and which I have owned a lot more over the years. Most of them in the 5-1/2 pound minus catagory are simply too light and whippy to shoot well. I was raised in Eastern KY where grouse was our primary game and we hunted them relentlessly without dogs. And their populations were very high. Any of these guns will work well on them. Over the years as I moved on to a lot of dove hunting (and shooting clays). I used all different gauges. I kept a lot of scores and records, and realized that once I went below 16 gauge, % started dropping. I often scored my best (especially on doves) with 16's but there was a measureable drop in targets and birds with the smaller bores. This shooting was done with heavier guns and often multiple barrel sets, so the difference was pretty much attributed to gauge.

I still shoot a lot of doves with a 28, largely because my daughters like them and (sounds silly) it is really easy to carry a lot of shells in your pockets. They tend to always be average weight 28's with long barrels. My favorite for preserve quail over dogs is a 5-1/2 # 28 with 30" barrels.

If asked to keep just two shotguns, the would be a mint 16 Sterlingworth that weighs 6 pounds with light barrels opened to Cylinder and IC, and a similar late date Ithaca NID16 with well struck barrels and Mod/Full barrels. I shoot these as well as any two guns I have ever owned, and would have no worries about hunting anything other than waterfowl with them. I live at the non-Mississippi end of the state, so the flyway is not a normal destination, so that's not a huge consideration.

Thanks, Art. I really enjoy reading the passion in an account like this about guns and hunting -- great "stuff!"

I have hunted the mountains in Eastern Kentucky, public land near Manchester mostly, with some time spent (fruitless, I might add) near Moorehead. I enjoyed my years hunting there, but would have liked more birds (duh, right?). I keep thinking I'll go back. I read about your DNR's plans for grouse with hope. I'm not sure I have the right dogs for those mountains now...or the "right" legs and lungs.

BTW, send all "whippy" 28 gauge guns my way. I shoot so close and so quick, the weight of the gun is of little consequence. My best (a.k.a. the one I killed the most grouse with) gun was an 1930s vintage boxlock John Dickson and Sons 28, choked cylinder/full. I could carry it in one hand while hanging on for dear life with the other in those near vertical coverts in the mountains.

I hope you'll share some photos of your 16s sometime, and I hope I can run into you on our travels east. I love Kentucky -- much like Missouri in many regards, except you have better mountains(!).

Take care,

Garry

I don't have much hope for the birds in Eastern KY any more. Between strip mining (and reclaiming as flat fescue meadows, all before the mountaintop mining issue and rules) and farming practices there now, the quail and grouse don't have much of a chance. The DFW puts all its efforts into stocking the public areas but there isn't much benefit there. They do a good job with turkey and elk, with turkeys going from not here to being almost a nuisance as the deer have become. The elk program to re-establish (they were the primary prey for both Indians and settlers in the days when we had prairie grasslands, but disappeared. They are doing so well that the several hundred permits each go mostly to the thousands of applications from out of state.

When I was a kid, the grouse were everywhere. We would go up the hill behind our house on the edge of town, make a loop around a couple of small watersheds where the farmer's didn't care, and get grouse, quail, squirrel and rabbits (often 2 or 3 species on the same day). We lived in an outdoor paradise and didn't realize it. Peeople didn't even glance at someone in a canvas jacket and brush pants walking through the middle of town with a shotgun.

Gosh, for those days (as you describe) again! I did run into elk on my grouse hunts, the first time I "flushed" one was quite the surprise. I hunted older clear cuts (could fine no recent ones) and some grapevine ravines, but even in the short time I hunted Kentucky, those coverts all grew past even the older acceptable (to grouse, that is) age structure. So, I guess you've not checked out any of the newer habitat projects. I was thinking I might, but...

Although Ohio grouse season is closed, I ran my setter Doodle today thru some old strip mine/spoil bank cover that still looks as good as when we were flushing 25 birds/day there. I just wanted to get out with the dog and look for shed antlers and future sites for deer stands. In between 2 spoil banks she pulled up into a point. I thought it might be an early woodcock arrival, but was a big cock grouse. I had heard a bird drumming in that area both this spring and fall. Doodle pointed it again about 100 yds ahead as we moved around the hill. Strip mining sure created alot of great cover back in the day despite it's negative impacts.
I came across this old bucket from a shovel close to where I flushed the bird. If any body wants to help, we could get a few bucks for scrap--probably would weigh over a 1000 lbs.

Doodle and bucket.

Art, I have a German hammer 16 also, cant read the name of the maker. Has .metric 29.5 in barrels cyl/F, and weighs less than 6 lbs. It's a little off face, but shimmed it up. Only paid 250 for it.

The German Gun Collectors had a table full of shooter Sauers, including several 16’s, at the Southern a few years ago. Unfortunately, I did not get any. They were priced to sell

gun
 

Probably not Harold, but just in case send the dog and gun just to make certain! An English Setter and a 16GA Parker best in the field.

Now I know where all the 16's have gone.

William did your 16 come with the round knob? I wonder how many 16's came from the factory with a round knob grip?

Good question about that DH with the round knob. She’s a beauty.

I have a lightly-used 1925-issue, 1-frame VH 16 that my father wheedled away from a hunting and fishing buddy decades ago, when the unsuspecting owner of the gun proudly showed his new prize to Dad. I shoot it occasionally at the range, and may use it, given its full chokes, on Pheasants in open country. I also see that Ballistics Products offers a spreader insert for the 072SG16 wad, if one is reloading, which expands my options.

As for 0-frame 16s, the subject of the thread, my go-to grouse gun is a 1907, and later restored, 0-frame, 26-inch barreled 16-gauge VH. It is factory-choked cylinder and modified. Implausibly, the gun took First Place Honors in the People’s Choice Awards at the 2021 PGCA Annual Meeting and Banquet, amid an array of stunning upland guns – A, B, C, and D-grades.

The photo reveals little about the gun’s aesthetic features, however modest they are relative to the higher-grade competition, but it does convey what the gun was intended in to be used for.

Russell:

You paired that award winning 16-gauge VH with a very handsome dog. Great photograph!

-Victor

Victor:

That previous photo was of "Zoey". She was preeminent among my guide's dogs in her day. Fantastic nose.

Then came "Hank", paired with the same doughty 0-framed 16-gauge VH.

The cyl/mod choking is my favorite, especially for grouse.l have a 26 in VH 20, and my DHE 16 both choked that way, and both weigh exactly 6 lbs. I've often thought I'd like to try an English Pointer.

Beautiful dogs, and a special gun. I followed many pointers in my time participating in field trials in Missouri. They can sure strike a pose on point that will make you catch breath.

Here’s “Hank” with his master, a professional Maine guide, and off-season field-trialer, in an illustration for an article on Maine sporting camps that was published in the October 2017 issue of FIELD & STREAM.

Despite his considerable experience, with dogs, guns, clients, and the Maine woods and waters, my guide was late to be bitten by the Parker 16-gauge bug. He acquired a pre-1920 (that is, one with the rib extension detail) 1-frame Trojan 16 in 2022, and brought it to the Major Waldron’s New Year’s Day shoot this last December 31st.

The 16-gauge offers manifold applications, with regard open or close-cover upland birds, or waterfowl, be it from blind, boat or when donning waders and walking sloughs, backwaters, and potholes -- a blend of upland and duck hinting that my father used to do. But there seems to be wide agreement on the 16-gauge being ideal for the North American Ruffed Grouse.

:shock::eek:





.

Here is a Parker 16 O frame I own. Bought it on an internet auction. It was completely restored/restocked a few years ago. the barrels are 28" with very nice 4 stripe Damascus. The factory letter weight was 5-14, and with the new stock it is 6-1. I have yet to shoot it, but with the well struck barrels that yield this weight, the handling seems really nice.

https://i.imgur.com/pwCkm7h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0KlSJcW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JY0wM1G.jpg

ArtS:

That would be your DH, based on my viewing your list of 16s.

Was it disclosed who did the restoration?

Yes, it did. That is the original stock. Refinished, but original wood.
I have no idea how many had such a stock.

Next to my 28's the 16 is my favorite regardless of frame size. I've downsized some but the Parkers are
GHE 2 barrel et 28 inch vent ribs. skt/skt & M/F shipped from Alex Kerr's AKA The Hollywood gun
CHE 30 inch PG splinter forearm M/F
GHE 32 inch vent rib
Grade 1 32 inch hammer gun
GHE straight grip 28 inch Damascus
Grade 3 30 inch hammer gun
Others are
LeFever Optimus (upgrade) 28 inch IC/F
Purdey two barrel set
J Venebles & Son back action hammer gun with Jones under lever 30 inch barrels.
CS Rosson straight grip 26 inch IC/M. This was hell on quail last month in Georgia.
Fox Sterlingworth straight grip (restock) 28 inches

I'm sure I have missed something but the memory ain't what it used to be:whistle:
I've added 4 so maybe thats all of them now

Yes.I recieved the compete billing documents for the restoration. One of the reasons I purchased it.

It was done by several people and I would rather not quote the workers without digging through my papers on the gun.

ArtS:

That is good that you have documents on the restoration. It rounds out the story and adds to the enjoyment. as I see it.

The trail had been lost on the restoration process of my restored VH. I have called a few of the better-known shops capable of the work and was told that there is no record of their having had my gun.

I considered the look faithful enough to suit my tastes when the gun was offered to me, and am still happy with the job, whoever did it.

Got to jump in as a 16 fan.
16 O frame St grip, splinter forearm 26" Miller single trigger 5-14, Matt mentioned

16 Trojan 26" 6-12 great teal and wooduck gun
1620 Merkel 28" 6lbs