I do use rubber stoppers but moisture can still get in around the rubber so the barrels need to be protected. Rubber stoppers can come out from the pressure that builds up in the barrels. I put a small pipe through the center of them and bend it upward to keep water from coming in. This works great.

Rubber stoppers are mandatory, but I believe coating the bores is also to be safe.

Some advise using both. Personally, I've not used a bore coating as of yet, and stoppers seem fine, although when I'm carding under water after etching, they've been known to be knocked out. Since it's just water, not so much of a big deal.

One fellow I talked about this along the way, doesn't use anything for the bores. His etches sounded brief, and he said it cleans out the bores. In his process he scrubs the bores during each cycle, so I suppose nothing potentially harmful is allowed access to the metal for long enough to be an issue.

I appreciate when we work together sorting this out. There's more than enough work to go around, and we're all the better for it when we collaborate. This process has such a high degree of variability due to materials and environment, all of those doing it have their own tweaks, and some are competitive about their secrets. Sharing is better. Thanks to all for contributing to the discussion.

I really enjoy these “conversations” Bill. Collaboration is great and will help us to get to the point where we can do any barrel with the same method and get consistent results. That’s the goal. Dale obviously got there and I know we can too.

The higher grade Damascus is the most difficult to do consistently, in my experience, with the exception of Bernard. I have a 20 bore set that I have tried to do three times an never got what I was looking for. I put the barrels away for years. But when I feel that I am where I need to be, I’ll try those barrels again. That will be my test.

I don’t have a lot of time to experiment with the process now since I am still working. But I am planning to retire in June and then I am going to devote a lot of my time to Damascus. I’m moving back to the family home in Pawling, NY and will have my grouse and woodduck hunting minutes away. I am so looking forward to that.

The first gun I am going to work on when I retire is a hammer Parker that was given to me by Austin Hogan. He was a friend and a great man with incredible knowledge. I am going to recut the checkering with mullered borders (I have been checkering since I was fourteen years old) and then refinish the stock and do the twist barrels. I call the gun my Austin gun. I’ll hunt ducks with that gun and think of Austin.

I use Laurel Mountain Forge degreaser and browner. I bought a pint of it years ago. I have used Pilkington also, but I don't believe the rusting agent used has much if any effect on the final results. They all work well.

I went to Laurel Mountain Forge because it is more forgiving if you manage to touch the barrels with a bare hand by mistake. They call it a degreaser but I wouldn't depend on that. All barrels need to be carefully degreased regardless of what rusting agent you are using. But Laurel Mountain is a bit more forgiving than the other rusting agents.

Likewise, Laurel Mtn. Forge in use here as well. I've also tried a number of solutions from Rustblue.com They work well, but the price is more of a premium.

Like you, I have a day job as well, so my time to experiment is limited. I do barrels for myself, and for friends, as barter or as favor. My workspace is not very suitable for any of it, which is why I steam vertically for the bluing process, and etch vertically. I have to etch and rinse outside, so that work is limited to daylight hours.

Keep at your tweaks, Sir. I wish you great success.

I have a restoration room with sink in my basement in Mt. Airy so things are a bit easier for me. When I move to Pawling I will convert the canning room in the basement to a restoration room and have a sink installed. Having a sink available is a great time saver.

I tried them at first, but I do all types of arms in my rust bluing. 90% of my work is on bolt actions. Hard to get rubber stoppers to stay in in the small bore sizes. Plus, I use iron wire to suspend the workpieces in my boil tank. The iron wire is much easier to manipulate during the carding.

On another tack, I built a rust cabinet early on, but I found it unnecessary as humidity averages 80-90% (measured with a sling psychrometer). (BTW, I am in the deep South. Humidity is all the time.) I usually start bluing in the early morning and stay with it continuously till early the next morning with about 4-5 passes. (card-swab-rust 3 hours-boil-repeat) I just found a source for rubber stoppers on line and have ordered a dozen of each, 1 hole and no hole, so I guess that is what I will be using on the Parker barrels. Anyone know of a good online source for glass tubing? Thought that would be best for the vent tube. I've bent a lot of it in chem lab, no problem. EVERYTHING has to be ordered here.
I found that the water is a major factor. I tried tap, rain, distilled, and finally water purified by the reverse osmosis process. The reverse osmosis water guarantees nearly prefect results every time. Pilkington's is my rusting agent.

Also, I use a lot of acetone as a degreaser in my bluing. I also use butyl rubber gloves to do all handling after the process starts.(only gloves the acetone doesn't dissolve!) I "rinse" them off each time I touch anything in process, and try to touch any workpiece as little as possible. My carding is by hand with 0000steel wool, degreased in acetone. The pad is changed every cycle. Many times, I dip it during the carding as well. I DO waer a rubber mask with proper filters. I have a very high success rate, maybe 1 in 50 jobs has to be re-polished for an error. ALL my polishing is by hand. Only thing I use a buffer in my shop for is sharpening my carving chisels. I have a supply of logwood, Ferric Chloride, etc. and Mr. Flanigan's instructions. I have 4 tanks, 2 fiberglass, 1 stainless steel, and 1 black iron.

Guess what I'm asking, am I on the right track for Damascus finishing?

You are definitely on the right track for Damascus finishing. I bend small hollow copper tubing for venting but I imagine glass would work as well. I don’t know where you can get bent glass however.

With the exception of etching, the process is basically the same as for rust bluing. However, you will have to do many more iterations to get the proper contrast since the Ferric chloride removes the color from both the steel and iron portions of Damascus, abeit at a slower rate for the iron portions. You have to do many iterations to get high contrast.

I can generally do the rusting in the summer without my damp cabinet. Not so in the winter up north. But I use the damp cabinet in both summer and winter to get more consistent rusting times.

I stopped using rubber gloves to handle the barrels since some can melt a bit on the hot barrels which ruins the finish. I use heavy duty leather gloves but I imagine there are some rubber gloves that won’t cause problems.

Ferric chloride is nasty stuff. When I retire in June, I plan to experiment with a mix that will etch the barrels without the danger or problems of ferric chloride. I don’t know if it will work properly but I have high hopes. I plan to devote a lot of time to trying to improve my process of Damascus finishing.

Bought my logwood from a trappers supply house. Lifetime supply for 20$. Whiting from brownells. they promite it for de-oiling stocks. Back in the day mixed with Trichlor now I guess it's Isopropyl or Acetone. Whiting and Ferrous Sulfate (copperas I believe is it's Apothecary name) makes final carding much easier

This might sound like heresy, but I don’t think the logwood bath at the end has that much of an effect. At least it hasn’t for me. My goal is to get true black on the iron portions without the use of logwood. I imagine any logwood clinging to the iron would wear off quickly anyway. My new method of finishing is encouraging so far. I’m getting closer to using the same method for all barrels without tweaks for harder to do finer Damascus or other barrels that don’t color well.

I’ve used whiting but stopped. Its messy and my thoughts are that acetone baths do a better job. Also, I oil the barrels when finished as opposed to lacquering them. I don’t believe lacquer belongs on barrels. It does make the pattern more vivid at first, but it wears off and has to be re-applied. The only time I would apply lacquer to a gun is if there is a lot of original color and I wanted to hunt with the gun without wearing any more off. I would put it on before the season and take it off afterwards.

Logwood as I recall is from the Campeche tree. It contains Haemotoxilin a strong black organic dye that attaches naturally to iron. Thus it's use in microbiology. So yes if it's oxidized off then it leaves little black behind. I agree that the photos show great contrast. But the black oxide you have created is very unstable and will decay quickly (relative term) from the ferro ferric oxide to ferric oxide or rust. This does not happen from an appearance perspective with Haemotoxilin present because it remains carbon black in color regardless of the conversion of the oxide. I wrote this from memory so forgive me if I've mis-spoken.

Very interesting Harry. Thank you. That is good to know. I'm going back to using logwood. My eye couldn't see much difference, but I guess there is after all. I appreciate you explaining this to me. Now if you can just find an etching agent that only works on the steel and not on the iron. I guess it doesn't exist or someone would be using it by now.
But that would be the holy grail.

This is a great thread and good to see some folks picking up where Dale left off

If anyone needs a set of barrels to work, drop me a PM, I have a set in desperate need of a refinish!

Most of what follows is direct from Dale Edmons:

This is where I am stuck.

It is not Dale's, obviously, but looks pretty good from where I stand

Almost there Harry. Getting them beyond this point to a true black is what we all look to accomplish. Good luck with them. It is often hard to get them beyond this point. Dale got there and we will too.

This is Dale's work on the 10 gauge I won the Southern with in 2005. I love the way Dale's barrels came out. That said I have some Parker examples that are almost black and I want to get closer to what I can compare. I have a short list of what to try next. Do me a favor Tom and look at the outline I use in the post above the pictures. I am open to any suggestions.

Harry

Dales barrels in the picture you posted are beautiful, as are yours. I could be wrong, but I believe that the barrels when they left Parker were true black and not a dark gray. I have gotten there with a couple of barrels but I can't do it consistently and that's my problem. I can't seem to get over the hump with most barrels.

Take a look at my tutorial and see the set of Bernard that I did. I think this is what they looked like when the left the factory. I wish they all came out this way.

I don't see the outline you mentioned. Please clarify.

Tom, it's an attached file in the post above my barrels picture. I'll look at your tutorial again. Thanks.
Harry

Thanks. Read it. I am going to try not etching until the end and use a stronger, less diluted Ferric Chloride. I will watch the barrels, doing them in a tank, rubbing the barrels with protected hands, and then remove them at just the right moment. Then I'll quickly wash them down with baking soda. That's the plan. But I have to be careful. Etching will remove metal if the barrels are in the solution too long. That's why I am going to do the etching in an open tank so that I can watch and remove at just the right moment. That's the plan. We'll see how it works out.

Hey guys what a great thread! So I have a quick question I have a set of Damascus barrels, there is some color to them, but I would like to get it darker, but dont have the set up for a full refinish. Is there any quick and easy way to get some color back to the barrels without having to go through the refinishing process?
Thanks
Rick

Rick, I watched gunsmith restoring an English shotgun with Damascus barrels. The barrels weren't that bad so he placed them in a tank. I tried to understand what the fluid was, but couldn't understand him. I'll try to find it and watch again. I was fascinated, but for the life of me I couldn't quite catch it.

Harry

I found it! The video is about the restoration of a W.W. Greener. This is part 4. The talk fo the fluid he uses starts at the 12 minute mark. Please help me understand what he is saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6pAYitBgMg

I think he said, sulfuric acid then iron sulphate in water.

Same problem, Tom. On this Lefever set, I didn't use logwood. I don't really want to use logwood. The problem is, I don't know precisely how this success was achieved. What made the difference? Don't know, and haven't had the same result quality since. That said, the process on this set was loosely as follows: rusting to the point of zero visible pattern, a lengthy dunk in the etchant, back to rusting until the pattern is gone again, and another dunk. I believe it was a total of three iterations of those two steps. Some of crolle' was filled quite well, which helps it look more black, and some was still thin. I had to stop at this for fear of wrecking the whole thing and having to start over.

That said, the bigger problem I am having is with the application of the rusting solution, and it building up too thickly on the barrels alongside the top rib. I am carding that area just as aggressively as the rest, but the oxide it too thick, even though I strive to be careful not to over-apply. I suspect that in my efforts to coat the barrel, and the rib sides completely, the problem is created regardless. If it weren't for that, my results would be much more consistent.

Lastly, I like carding with a very thin baking soda slurry, but have been trying a similar slurry of Bon-ami, which seems less abrasive.

I will add: I've tried Dale's repeated brownings until a strong contrast develops technique. I have never had a strong contrast develop. As stated earlier, I don't have logwood in the process. When I decide to boil (I use a steam system), the barrels are completely black; no pattern developed during browning, so no pattern was present after converting the rust.

I don't see how the carding between brownings takes off the rust on the steel but leaves it on the iron, unless the pre-etch makes that possible. There is a good bit of debate about pre-etching being worth it or not. I could be wrong, but I thought that Dr. Gaddy abandoned pre-etching.

Bill....I just formally retired today and so I plan to spend a lot of time refining my technique. I can pretty much dedicate myself to it till I get some answers. I am seeking a consistent, repeatable process that can be used for all barrels and that will provide consistent true black and white. I'm sure Parker didn't play with different methods for different barrels. I believe they used one process to get consistent results. They couldn't afford to do otherwise. Investigation continues......

Congratulations Tom!

I am stuck with my investigations being late at night. IBM gets the days, family on the weekends, church on Sunday. I'll keep at it, take better notes, and pass on to the group here anything to seems to be worth considering.

Hey, when are we going to start talking about those unfortunate barrels that have voids in the solder? I understand that some turn those barrels away until they are fixed properly. I don't think that's always reasonable for some, but protecting ones self from trapped fluids (including etchant) weeping on otherwise good work is certainly a challenge.

Maybe this kind of device would help?

Dale told me the way he prevented weeping and ruining the work completed was to wax the barrels twice, blow compressed air into the sight and vent holes if they are present. He spent about 20 minutes with a heat gun muzzle to breach, 20 seconds every two inches, both sides to remove any moisture under the ribs.

I use compressed air and heat gun methods, which he told me about as well. I still find that some barrels trap moisture between the braces, and even after blowing them out, the fluid boils out whatever the nearest void is. I'll try the wax angle, but the barrels would need to be quite dry for the wax to adhere well enough to stop what boils out.

Bill, your Lefever barrels are beautiful. When you say you rust until no pattern is visible do you not card between rusting? You steam rather than boil. Do you place the barrels in a box with a humidifier? Do you etch with ferric chloride or sulfuric acid?
Thanks,
Harry

Hi Harry. Thank you for your comments.

I converted the rust and carded just like I would a fluid steel set. The rusting solution (Laurel Mtn Forge) is diluted to 1 part solution to 5 parts distilled water.

I do not have space for tanks, so I used a schedule 40 4" PVC pipe over a perforated stock pot lid, with a stock pot on a propane burner. The barrels are suspended by wire and a chromed automotive breaker bar.

I have an old 6' school locker that has been sealed inside. A compact crock pot rests at the bottom.

I used ferric chloride, I think somewhere around 15%, in the same PVC set-up. I have not had an issue with the vertical approach, except that I cannot see the activity. I submerge and remove and rinse quickly enough to not experience significantly uneven etchings. That said, if I had the space available, I would at least etch in tanks so I could see and test the etching while it is underway. As it is now, I have to etch and rinse outside with a garden hose.

Great information! Thanks. When I apply the rusting solution (C-26 (X-8)) with a 1" foam brush that I saturate, squeeze dry, and blot on a paper towel. I apply in 1/4 turns going around the barrels three times. Sometimes it looks as if I hadn't done a thing, but sure enough I get a good rusting. I hope this might help with the build up of solution at the ribs.

Thanks Larry. I'll try that. Dale recommended that to me as well. After trying it once, I wasn't confident in the coverage due to the brush being so dry. Do you ever re-wet the brush midstream?

Also, I'm not following you in the instructions you've assembled about the quartering of the barrels in to top/bottom, left/right, etc. sections. What does that accomplish? I understand alternating muzzles up and down.

No, once I start I keep going and do not re-wet in mid stream. Dale told me to prevent having to much rust at either end of the barrels to alternate everything. One rusting start at the top rib side and from the breach, next rusting start on the opposite side at the muzzle, next rusting the top rib side from the muzzle, next the opposite side at the breach. I alternate how the rest in the rusting cabinet. Muzzle up, breach up, plus change the direction the top rib faces. I could be wasting time keeping track, but apparently Dale had a problem somewhere along the line. Each new set of barrels I start fall in synch with the others I have going. That way I am only doing things one way on a any given day.

Oh, as I 1/4 around the barrel if I have started at the breach I keep applying at the breach all the way around. I do not apply going up then back down.

So you apply around the circumference in sections rather than along the length with strokes from breach to muzzle?

I'm sorry Bill. I'm even confusing myself. If I start at the breach I do an even stroke all the way to the muzzle. Then another stroke from breach to muzzle a 1/4 turn around the barrel. Two more strokes from breach to muzzle completes that barrel. I wait about 15 minutes then do the other barrel from breach to muzzle with a foam brush freshly saturated, squeezed, and blotted. I rinse my brushes in deionized water to use again.