Changes in social ideas/ interest, and economics are two big factors. Gun enthusiast are a small group of our population and side by side folks are an even smaller percentage of that population. That group is aging and we are unfortuntately loosing more than we are growing. I do believe we had a big bubble that started back in the 1990's and was carried into about 2006/ 2007. Events like the Vintage Cup and Southern Side by Side and other side by side shoots were born and created a venue for us to do our thing. Even more influential was the birth of collectors associations, ie: PGCA, that have been our base/ home of operations and center for information/ etc. Yes the internet has made the sell and purchasing of guns more readily available and conventient.
All of these things play a role in how it is all going/ will go/ etc. IMO the base upon which it all matters is in exposing people to the guns. We as Parker enthusiasts are not only entrusted with the guns but also a responsibility to "pass along the torch" to our neighbors, younger generations, sons/ daughters/ wives (girl friends), etc. Opportunities exist. It is in how we perceive these opportunities that will determine the direction of our path. I believe, and maybe I am wrong ( I know I am wrong more than I am right), but I believe we hold the future of gun collecting in our own hands. I am certain it will not be conducted in the same manner as it has been in the past. Times they are a changing and we must be willing to adapt and adjust our course so we do not become extinct.
The prices for guns/ collectibles will vary as things go their cycle. People must see the object as valueable for it to hold any worth and be of any importance.

New blood in double gun use and collecting can start at your gun club. Kevin McCormack and I were raised from childhood in the same gun clubs. When we were kids, we were the only ones shooting double guns. Early on, Kevin and I only owned one Parker apiece. As time went on, we educated our fellow club members in the world of double guns, and now our shooting companions own hundreds of double guns and Kevin and I have been through hundreds of double guns ourselves. These people were not dragged, kicking and screaming into this world, they just watched and saw how much fun were were having.

Old guns and new shooter's
 

I find that the decline in prices and those purchasing them is mostly due to the loss of economic gains for the middle class in the last 10 years and the lack of young people in the shooting sports. While there are young people shooting and more women on the clays course, It is not enough to maintain the market. There is growing participation for special side by side events, it is still a small niche. Develop a plan to draft a young family member or a friend with younger children or grand children into the shooting sports in general and side by side shotguns in particular is a slow process but the only one that holds out hope for the future. I have a friend or two that are shooting fine American and English guns and they in turn have interested their sons. They are selectively buying and all are shooting them both on the course an in the field. I have been lucky in that my nephew, who is in law enforcement is a shooter and has taken up the side by side habit several years ago due to my encouragement. I started him out shooting my best guns and he has developed a keen interest. In his early 30's and raising a family he is not an active buyer at this time. (he has an uncle that is doing that). He has access to my guns and has an appreciation for them. He will be attending his first 4 day side by side event with me this year and is really looking forward to it. He shoots them all very well and I do have to work to beat him for scores (to have young eyes and reflexes again). He knows what they are and their values and when my time comes, they will be passed to him. He in turn will pass them on to his son. I rest easy knowing that I will not have to sell any and they will end up being used and well taken care of.

Just spent three days at the Las Vegas Show and a wonderful dinner and time at the Parker Banquet. In my opinion you would had to be blind not to observe the "Problems" we have with our hobby based on the last three days. First public attendance at the show was miserable at "best", second the average age of the vendors and attendees had to have been 70 or above, third Parker Banquet attendees was a "very mature group", fourth been going to this show for many years and the if you were a buyer you had a choice of some excellent Parkers at extremely reasonable (low) prices, finally almost no attendees under 40. If our hobby and passion for Parkers is going to grow and continue we must develop a organizational plan to help get the younger generations involved. I'm convinced with the depth, knowledge, skill, resource we have within this organization we can accomplish this critical task. But we better get started as out members are not getting any younger.

I think we need PR reps to get the word out. We need to be seen on any and all kinds of media. Younger people need to see how much fun we have shooting these old side-by-sides at sporting clays, skeet and trap. I think we need links on our various websites to shooting-event videos that can be easily accessed right on our home pages. We've got to make it very easy for them - this is the generation of "instant gratification" so let's put it right out there. Some of you guys with "Go-Pros" take videos of your hunting forays actually shooting birds a-la Mike Smith, and get them to the folks who can post them up on the forums.
I know it's pretty hard in some parts of the country to get this kind of thing on TV but it can be done if we contact the right people at the right stations. I think most collector organizations are 'not for profit' so maybe some of this can be aired as a "public service."

Just a few thoughts, while we're brainstorming.





.

Dean is on the right track. It's visibility and "acceptance" in the eyes of potential enthusiasts that can help reverse things.

Something we can do NOW, and with little effort, is to create a new home page button/link to "videos" and link to this Youtube selection:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...gun+collectors


While I'm not sure that "killing birds" right off is a wise course, target shooting and the "History Channel fun" of old doubles certainly is.

In addition, the PGCA can partner with other double gun organizations to promote our passion through more refined videos, special events at the Southerns, revised promo ads in Shooting Sportsman, Double Gun Journal, etc.

But the focus should ALWAYS be on youth and NEW shooters of any age (under 80).

My youngest daughter, Macey, is a member of the Junior Shooter's Magazine Shooting Team.

She has to come up with and write articles for the magazine to be sponsored on the Shooting Team. She wrote one about attending an Appleseed shoot and she has written a couple of reviews.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture...pictureid=8709

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture...pictureid=8710

As you can see above, she is shooting a double.

She likes clays and so that she and I can shoot more, I just purchased a Do All Raven Automatic Trap Thrower. I'll get her to write an review article about the trap thrower and get pictures of her shooting clays with her cowgirl double and with some of my Parkers.

I wish this whole thread was in a members only forum. It pains me that interested visitors to the site will read this thread and decide that Parker collecting/shooting is a dying genre and not worth investing time or money in. Us members are already hooked and enjoying what we do, but the newcomers to the site can be easily turned away. There is no doubt that we need to advance interest in the collecting and shooting of Parker guns but displaying the dirty laundry for all to see is not good for our cause. I'm not attacking anyone here....please don't take it that way. I'm just saying...

I am going to break ranks and say I am optimistic about the future of collecting. I have wanted to be a collector ever since seeing my great uncle's gun room with guns all around it when I was about 3 or so. I wanted a Parker for years before I owned one and only got around to acquiring multiple ones a few years ago. Truth is, it is hard to be a collector when you are young and just starting out. Although the average age was pretty old in Vegas, there was a small but significant group in my age range. I predict more will come on as time goes by.

We can't rest on our laurels, though, and need to be proactive in attracting younger collectors and shooters. I had several conversations with members in Vegas about this issue and some good suggestions were made. I don't know if those suggestions will be acted on, but those might generate other ideas that will.

I invited my nieses boy friend to a preserve pheasant shoot last weekend. I asked if he had a shotgun to hunt with...yep...I got a Mossberg pump. So after much thought I offered to let him use a pretty nice L.C. Smith field 12 with 30" M/F barrels. We had 8 shooters, 50 birds doing a European type shoot, Hi overhead shots so the 30" barrels would work good! Ben got off to a slow start and fussed not having his Mossberg. Told him to cover up the birds, things did change and he started hitting birds hard. Big smiles now! He made some comments later in the hunt when we got the pointers out to find missed birds, we had some bonding time. At the end of the day I gave him the Smith gun, that young man is now hooked and was headed home to learn all about his new L.C. Smith double gun. He is a good kid...learning the plumbing trade, not a spoiled liberal type and I am sure he will keep that gun I gave him, he appreciated it!!! SXS ohio

Pretty much the same conversation is happening on the SASS Wire, which is the forum for the Single Action Shooting Society.

Folks are concerned about the Cowboy Action Shooters becoming older and not being able to attract new and younger shooters.

I believe the reasons are similar in some ways. Shooting and hunting are no longer seen as mainstream activities by many younger folks. If their father or grandfather doesn't take them shooting or hunting, it's not happening.

I would imagine that many of y'all grew up just like I did, out in the woods with a .22 or a 20 gauge was just about an everyday activity. If you looked in the parking lot at my high school, there would be rifles and shotguns in gun racks in the back windows of at least half of the pickup trucks that were there. I know that there usually was in my old '68 Chevy. As soon as school was out we were going hunting. Ain't no way that is happening nowadays.

Today more kids grow up in town instead of the country. You can't run around town with a rifle or a shotgun like you could when we were kids.

My post is in no way trying to hurt our wonderful organization, my interest is making it grow, be more inclusive to all ages and gender, grow, share the wealth of knowledge, friendship and passion our group has for our hobby.
The younger generations have grown-up with the social media, electrics, and instant information. Look at our children, grandchildren and even our great grandchildren I believe we need to be playing in their sandbox. Many High Schools, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts have video/film making programs, there are countless opportunities to have our members show/teach/share different information: stock making, engraving, rust bluing, case hardening, shooting tips, difference between trap/sheet/live bird guns, how to pick a piece of wood for a stock, science of reloading and pressurer, etc........! Match the depth of knowledge in this organization with the kids passion (electrics) and I believe they will soon be hooked on our love of Parkers and double shotguns.
Think about it "videos" developed by kids posted on our web page; parents, grandparents and how many of their friends will want to see what they have done.
Collecting, shooting, hunting will only be their next step.

I got bit by the Parker bug a few years ago. I bought my first Damascus GH right when I turned 40 and I am 43 now. I am closing in on a dozen Parkers and finally building a gun room. I think part of the issue is conveying the knowledge that you can shoot these old guns and that you really are buying a piece of history. It would be nice if RST or Polywad shells were at more retailers and other shooting places(Addieville East in Rhode Island does carry these shells). Most younger shooters will not likely be reloading. I think some of the main sources of resistance are:

- Knowing what and where to buy
- How do I know if a gun is safe to shoot?(and having confidence in it)
- Where to get shells?(Most people are not ordering shells online). Most of these guns cannot be shot with big box store ammo
- The gun has tight chokes(I didn’t know about spreader shells until I saw them on RST’s website)
- Who can work on it?(Most people haven’t boxed up a gun and brought it to FedEx or UPS) Most of us know by now that sending a gun to get fixed is a simple process.

I had all of these questions when I bought my first Parker, but after 3 years I know all the answers to the above concerns and sometime can’t sleep because I am thinking of a Parker. Every time I shoot sporting clays I am always asked about the Parker I am carrying. I usually have to explain Damascus and low pressure shells. One of the most common questions is “Where do you even get a gun like that?.” Remember most people haven’t bought a gun online or through the mail either(without seeing it first).

I do think more casual vintage or sxs shoots might help if they’re easy and fun. I think anything promoting the “romance” of a fine double gun(not to mention the level of quality and possible investment value) could also have a positive influence. Basically, you have to convince the youth of today that it is worth some of the “hassles” to shoot these guns. Which we would all agree it is and to go even further the only way we want to shoot.

I am trying to do my part, I brought a former student of mine who is 29 to the Southern SXS and let him shoot one of my guns. He loved it! Perhaps best of all, my 5 year old daughter thinks any long gun is a Parker shotgun. As she should…

If you want to further the cause and want to take a young-n along, bring them to one of the shoots that are posted here on our forum. That way you introduce them to Parker, double guns and some fun shooting too.

Many of you may not be aware of the "Calendar" link found at the top of this page (and all forum pages) where you can both enter information on a shooting event and also look for one that has been scheduled.

As you guys post events for shooting, I try to enter the dates on that calendar for you, but I admit, I probably don't get them all. It would be better if you entered them directly.:whistle:

Now that you know the Calendar exists, I suggest that more forum users use it. :banghead: Take a look at the start of every month and see if there is something you might like to attend. More than just once a month may be advised, especially if people start entering more shooting opportunities on their own!

Another good place to look for Parker shooting is by clicking the Events link on the left side of the PGCA home page. If someone knows of a PGCA shoot or gathering event, and wants it posted there, please PM me with the information (but it must be double gun oriented).

I have the feeling these tools are not used by most forum members but if we start using them it may enhance our shooting opportunities, yes? :corn:

I'm sure, not helping (at least here on the west coast), is the pending California lead ban.
It has helped me see the writing on the wall and led me to the divestiture of many of my vintage doubles.

Sorry to be the guy betting on the No Pass line.

I've only been a member for a couple years, but I read almost everything in our forum. I rarely post, but I do have an opinion. I'm close to 70 years old but I've only been collecting Parker's and a few other high grade SxS's for several years. A few years ago prices for Parkers, Fox's and Ithaca's were "up there", and examples of some very fine guns could be found at the larger gun shows. Not anymore it seems. I've been to the last three gun shows advertised for my area and only one of them had a display of higher quality SxS's, whereas 5-10 years ago there were always vendors present selling high quality guns. My opinion is that the majority of our younger generation has virtually no interest in vintage shotguns, nor firearms of any kind for the most part. While "our" generation was raised with all types of guns in our homes, and shooting and hunting was very commonplace (at least where I was raised), today's youth have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by our schools, colleges and the media on the horrors of guns and shooting and hunting. If you DO find young folk who have any interest in firearms, it's usually the polymer-frame handguns and/or the black rifles.
As an older guy, I DO believe our love of vintage SxS's, especially the quality guns of the last century, is dying. I am not convinced our passion for Parker's, Fox's, Ithaca's and LC's will transcend to the younger generation that just seems more interested in technology than anything involving the great outdoors. Just my $.02

I might only get one convert out of 100, but whenever I visit a skeet or trap range that has more younger folks shooting than dedicated trap or skeet shooters, I make it a habit of bringing 3 or 4 side x sides with me and make sure that at least one of them has damascus barrels. In between rounds I approach some of these young folks and ask to see their pumps and semi-autos. By expressing an interest in their guns it invariably leads to their asking me about my Parkers or other vintage doubles. It's truly surprising how many young folks have never even seen a SxS, much less had the chance to use one. As often as I can, I give them a Parker and tell them to shoot a round on me. Many of them finish the round, ask a few questions, and then ask if I would mind if they shot another round. This, I believe, is the best way to introduce new shooters to our SxS fraternity. It seems to work for me, especially here in New Jersey where most of the hunting lasts for 30 minutes, or until all of the stocked pheasants are shot before your feet get cold.

Well I like a good debate so I am going to offer a different opinion. I think the SxS shotgun shooting and collecting world is alive and well and the opinion that it is all old guys with no new blood is a farse as well. Collectible firearms are no different than collectible cars, art, coins, etc. and it takes four things in my opinion for a person to be active in the hobby or to be a collector and/or shooter of these wonderful guns.

1. Passion
2. Knowledge
3. Money
4. Time

While a young person may have one or two of the items on this list they very rarely have all four in regards to old SxS shotguns in their 20’s or even their 30’s. I think serious double gun hoarding happens in your 40’s and 50’s and is usually influenced by family or friends. I think shotgun collecting has a sweet spot from age 40 – 70. This is where passion, knowledge, money, and time all come together. I think this was true 50 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and today.

There was a recent post on Parkers listed for sale in a gun list from 1968 and some follow up post from our members who were young men at that time and how their finances would not have allowed them to purchase these Parkers. Why would it be any different for a 20-25 year old today? I am sure there are exceptions but this is my observation.

Patrick

I agree with Patrick. As long as the 2nd amendment is not left by the roadside collecting and shooting of fine guns will continue. The size of the community may wax and wane over the decades, but as long as we are still allowed to posses them it will be there.

New Mexico High School Cheerleader

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGp_tneP48

PS: Kayla already has Antelope and Mule Deer hanging on the wall and now a World Class Desert Bighorn Sheep. She has been shooting and hunting since she was a very girl.

I live in the Rochester, NY area. Within 6 hours I can drive to 8 gun restorers many of them well known to this forum. Two of the owners have personally expressed there concerns about the average age of there clientele and the future of there vocation. I found my own way to the hobby as did everyone whose story I know did. In 45 years I have never met a person who credits another person for leading them to the hobby. In the early 1960's my village was surrounded by farmland and pheasants. The vacant farmland is filled with housing tracts and the pheasants you see can only be found in pictures today.

I have been in the high grade gun business in one form or another for 40 years.What I have seen is a separation of the market for fine guns.When I started most nice doubles were bought by shooters who also collected.The last 10 years there are fewer shooters and more pure "collectors".Really pristine guns of any kind now bring more that they ever have. However,nice guns with any wear at all are dropping in price.Another factor that has not been mentioned is the large number of guns that are coming on the market now.As we baby boomers downsize or pass away more and more collections are coming out.Economics 101,high supply means lower prices.

Ok...how to address this...Another topic on another gun forum about young people not collecting or buying classic guns. These things are cyclical like all things. Part of it I am quite certain has to do with the fact that the guns have in my opinion become too valuable too quickly. As a member of that group below the age of 40, it is hard enough at this point in our lives to buy a house for our family, we don't have disposable income to currently go investing in guns at prices that are at an exorbitantly high value. You all must remember that yall got into buying these guns when they were pennies on the dollar compared to what these guns are selling for now. Combination of older collectors falling off and younger collectors lacking the finances to pick it up at the high (see inflated (my word)) prices that they currently are at. Hey, I absolutely love love love parkers, colts, winchesters, brownings, mustangs, remington/russel art, Henry rifles, etc etc etc. I do not mean to be insulting but some of you lose context of how you started collecting these toys and what prices/stage in life you were at. People always say it's because we don't appreciate it, true but also, at our stage in life we also aren't in the position to have the disposable income to pay the large sums of money that all these guns and vehicles and art and other brick a brack that we collect. The market is currently down though I am certain it will indeed recover. And yes, sorry to disappoint but the younger generations will continue to collect and value. It is just in a trough at the moment. I will say that to me at least I am not seeing cheaper prices. 4 years ago when I got into this, damascus D's could be had for less than 2k....not really seeing those at the moment. Higher grade guns I have no clue about as I will never own one...but don't worry others my age will.

Regarding interest in shooting.... at least in my small part of the world, with a county population of less than 15k, we have a 4-H Trap and 22 teams that each have between 20 and 30 members paricipating. Ranging in age from 8-18.

As a Parker enthusiast in his 20's, yes if only for another 4 months, I have done my best to interest people my age in vintage doubles even if I have literally had to give them away, no joke. I have never had anyone that I have taken shooting not immediately fall in love with these guns. You just can not compare a modern gun to a vintage side by side, but every time I ask why they do not get into vintage side by sides the answer is always the same.. money.

Import Tarifs
 

If the new administration passes the proposed import tariffs of up to 35%, Would it greatly increase the value of imported guns if included in such regulations. Also would it give a small spike in value to all Parkers and USA made guns? Just wondering, and waiting for pundit replies and guidance.

i thought the 35% was to items that were made in the USA and were moved out of the country-

in that case Purdys and H&Hs would not be affected, nor would CZs or Spanish guns

I doubt new gun prices ever have much affect on vintage gun sales anyway, a different group of buyers

I must mention that the lack of financial knowledge is rampant among young people today. They don't have any money because they spend what they have on crap and pay interest on every purchase, skewing the sale price. In 1969,I came out of the Army after making from $78.00 to $214.00 a month for two years. I left a pair of Model 21s and a couple of Parkers at home while I was gone. I bought a two year old Chevrolet and a Westley Richards shotgun the month I got out of the service. I was poor, raising kids, going to school, and trying to start a career. However, I never stopped buying guns, whether they were in decline or going up in price. That is what you are supposed to do, whether it is your 401K or your stock portfolio. Maybe a little education on the use of the dollar would help to get younger people into our hobby.

But that is what a lot of those in my generation are doing Mr. Murphy. We saw our parents get caught unprepared for retirement and rather then spending money on guns we are paying off our homes, avoiding debt on cars, and investing heavily in our retirement. Sure, there are plenty my age who are loose with their money, just as there were when you were this age, but those were never the people who would invest in classic guns anyway.

I was watching a gun control debate not long ago and the person arguing in favor of tougher laws was lamenting the fact that although gun ownership is down among young people, support for tougher gun control was about the same as other generations.. In fact, in some cases people aged 50+ were more likely to support new regulations.

Just about every time I'm out on the clays course, someone asks me what I'm shooting. Always a side by side and a box lock, side lock or hammer gun. Smokeless or black powder loads. I shoot all of them about the same for score and explain to them what it is and some of the finer points of each. I offer them a opportunity to shoot a pair or more and many take me up on the offer. They are interested in the gun and loads and are a bit surprised at how well the black powder loads perform on the targets. It offers them an appreciation for what went before and is still useful in the field and on the course. I believe I'm seeing a few more doubles on the course in the last year or so. LC's, Parkers and a occasional Fox. Not too many English or Continental guns fielded but I'm covering that category. Some times it's a new purchase of a family gun pulled out of the closet and shot for the first time. Our Sport/Hobby is never going to be gangbusters but it has the potential of growing is we all do our bit one at a time.

We can all tell a story: I was hunting Pheasant in South Dakota some years ago, and was in a group of Minneapolis business men who all had autoloaders of some kind. One guy asked me what that gun I had was: I said "It's a Parker." His reply: "Oh, I never heard of one." At the end of the day, another guy said "Let me see that gun of yours; you were really killing birds with that little popgun." (A 16 gauge) These weren't stupid guys; they just were of the next generation.

We have to acknowledge that nostalgia plays a part in it; todays youth - unless they were raised with a bunch of old guys like us - didn't grow up with double guns, or even pumps...for most of them - if they grew up hunting at all - it was autoloaders and everything was higher, farther, faster, and more of it.

Take a look at the hook 'n' bullet magazines and websites; except for those catering to the hobby aspects of outdoor sports, you won't find many articles or ads about vintage guns or guys with bamboo rods and brook trout. Mostly it's pictures of guys (and gals) in camo with painted faces who'd look more at home in a military skirmish than a bird cover, and ads for rods that will make anybody cast a mile with giant fish and slogans like "fear no fish!"

It's hard for a guy with two shots in his gun who comes home wet, tired, and happy to have one bird in his bag to compete with a video game where you can shoot a hundred of something anytime you want to from the comfort of your armchair. I few will get it, but not many.

Maybe we should submit some double gun articals to popular magazines to promote ourselves? Dual submit to Parker Pages and XYZ. Who knows, maybe they would print it and give some unknowing shooter/hunter some insight to what we kike to do.

Nostalgia plays a big part as does availability.When I started in the business in the late 1960s,if you walked into a show with a nice Parker,Smith,or Winchester,you drew a crowd. Everyone wanted to see one because they thought they were rare.I looked on Gunsinternational this morning.They have 471 Parkers listed.When you can go down a list like that and price shop,it really takes some of the mystique out of the experience.Really good ones are rare,but the average beginning gun buyer does not know that.

.






.

Dean,just to get back to your main point about prices.I bought a 12ga.DHE 11/2 frame at the Louisville show 2 weeks ago for $2300.It had a little honest wear but was in super mechanical shape.Nice "average"guns are going down in price.Mint,rare,or special order guns are going up.

There is a DH being offered for sale right here on our Members Only section at a very low figure, for what it is. I'm shocked it is still for sale. Some of this makes no sense to me these days.






.

One thing that might help is to try to get local gun clubs to have a few SXS only events.It gives them something new to offer their members and might stimulate some interest in doubles.Maybe the PGCA could even sponsor such an event.Most of the live pigeon shoots now have SXS only races.I have sold a few #2 frame tight choked guns to those guys.I don't see why the sporting clays crowd would not go for it.

Dave Suponski puts on a SXS shoot each spring at Addieville East Farm. The owner/operator of the place along with his staff are always excited to see us come. I'll be bringing my grandson again this year.
Dave's son Danny, used to come to all of these events.... before he discovered there was an opposite sex.... And that brings up yet another obstacle we need to recognize in younger folks - girls and peer pressure.





.





.