As far as I know the green cloth covered hardback is the only version of Remington Double Shotguns.

Charles showed in his book and The Double Gun Journal articles an FE-Grade Trap Gun, P132953 and a CEO-Grade, 132037, that have 2 3/4 stamped in the same spot as 121252's 2 7/8. In 1901, Union Metallic Cartridge Co. offered loaded 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch lengths. The heaviest loads offered were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powders such as Infallible (opps not yet on the market in 1901) or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. Those loads could be had in the 2 3/4 inch or any of the longer cases. The longer cases offering more and better wadding which many serious Pigeon shooters believed in.

Thank you Dave for the information on shell avalibility at the time and chamber lengths. Getting a book coming this morning.

From the introduction of the Remington Hammerless Double Barrel Shotgun in the October 1894 Remington Arms Co. catalog through their second 1901 catalog, they only pictured the A-grades and just listed the higher grades.

First (Green & Gold cover) 1901 Catalog --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...shhquyctm.jpeg

Second (Blue cover) 1901 catalog --

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Beginning with the first 1902 Catalog they pictured all the grades.

First 1902 Catalog --

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Thanks again Dave, I ordered a hard back book today. Cannt wait to start reading. I now have two blanks to choose from for restocking. Really excited about this gun.

Wood bought for project.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachm...1&d=1479420758

nice wood you got there cannot wait to see it on the gun...charlie

Looks like a great stick for a DEO-Grade

Phillip: I do like your wood. My opinion is, that you have this right.
David

Thanks guys I feel fortunate that I was able to get this stock blank from a friend. it's been sitting on a shelf for 15 years waiting for a special gun.

A very worthy project, for sure!
It's all lost in the annals of family history now, but the first SxS shotguns that I had memories of, were a couple of Remingtons on the family farm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pszukgec9l.jpg

Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. Looks like 300 for the right barrel and 343 for the left barrel -- 300/511 = 58.7 % right and 343/511 = 67.1 % left.

From surviving Remington Arms Co. hang tags we know the load they were using in 1901 was Load No. 8 in the UMC SMOKELESS shell --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pslrn7g44i.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...syusxlzkn.jpeg

Later Remington Arms Co. hang tags show 12-gauge guns being targeted with UMC NITRO CLUB shells Load No. X8 with 24 grains of Infallible powder.

All the above being said, I wonder if that 7 next to the 2 7/8 on the left barrel might indicate this gun was targeted with No. 7 shot?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfuwpjlyo.jpg

Could the dot below the 7 mean No. 7 1/2 shot? DEO-Grade 135127, sold a while back by Julia's, has its hang tag with it which had the No. 8 Chilled Shot typed over with 7 1/2 and the barrel lug with the pellet counts has a 7. stamped on it? Lots of things to speculate about on these made to order Remington Hammerless Doubles.

Phil, A DEO 1894 Remington is a very special gun. No two are alike. In fact even the C grades are pretty much individual.
To give you an idea of how scarce they are consider that several years ago I stopped by to visit Charlie Semmer to get his opinion on my Grandfathers CEO. He told me that my gun made 81 C grades he could verify. His estimate was there were probably only 300 or so C grades made. The C grades and above were rather custom guns according to Charlie. You D grade is certainly much rarer than a C. I bought be of his books while at his house and would urge you to find one. He was a very nice man. Your gun deserves to be brought back to its former glory. Peter C

Thanks Dave for the information. Looking forward to getting this gun home and getting the restoration process started.
Does anyone know of articles written possibly for the DoubleGun Journel on graded 1894 Remington's?

Phil, what a great 1894 and so worthy of a restock. Nice catch! :bowdown:

So, production guns were made for 2-5/8" shells. Good solid information. I wonder, did Remington follow that "practice" we're told about, that chambers were held 1/8" short for the cartridge? Said another way, do 12 gauge Remington SxS chambers intended for 2-5/8" shells actually measure about 2-1/2" long? Or are they full length at 2-5/8" long? And if not short-chambered, why didn't the Company follow that practice that's been broadly interpreted from tidbits of period evidence? :whistle:

This gun is stamped 2-7/8 and one of the posts says the chambers measure 2-7/8. A similar question, was it made for the period 2-7/8" shells or period 3-inch shells?

FWIW four of the five 12-gauge Remington Hammerless Double Barrel Shotguns in my collection have chambers that measure 2 5/8 inch. My FE-Grade Trap Gun has chambers that measure 2 3/4 inch but I suspect they may have been lengthened. It belonged to an old Pennsylvania Pigeon shooter and has a beavertail forearm and the choke of the left barrel was, I suspect, opened to .018".

My rather hap hazard table of observed high grade Remingtons has 18 D quality hammerless doubles on it. The nearest to this gun in question was 121359 with a straight grip stock which was for sale by the Cabelas in Lacey, Washington, a few years back. My note says "butt extension."

Phil,

Charles Semmer's article in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Twelve, Issue 3, page 143, about restocking a straight gripped DE-Grade with a horribly broken stock might be of interest to you.

Dave

Thank you Dave. Now we know that 4 unmolested Remington 12 gauge hammerless guns that were made for 2-5/8" shells, have chambers that measure 2-5/8" long. So why are Parker and Fox the only American gun makers I remember hearing about, that seemingly followed that "practice" of cutting 12 gauge chambers @ 2-5/8" long for 2-3/4" shells? :banghead:

Food for thought gents. :)

I "wasted" the better part of Monday going through all my notes, slips of paper, pictures on three different computers, etc. and produced a new consolidated table of the engraved Remington hammerless doubles I've observed. I have 21 E quality and 18 D quality, plus in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Eleven, Issue 4, page 141, Charles mentioned three sets of Krupp barrels or Krupp barrel guns of D quality 140667, 140670 and 140672. Other then those, I don't have anything recorded in the 140xxx and 141xxx range?

I believe Charles was up around 31 each recorded in D and E qualities.

Dave,
Thank you for all of the Historical data you archive on vintage guns and ammunition. You are a wealth of knowledge.
I had no idea how fortunate I was to acquire my new Remington DEO until you as well as others unselfishly shared your knowledge.
I am really excited about getting this gun back to its former glory, and hopefully will be able to get more history on this gun.
I know so far that the owner ( seller) in his 80's received this gun on his 14th birthday. It was given to him by his grandfather whom was a doctor and purchased it used from another Doctor in their home town for the occasion.

1894 DEO
 

Phil,

Glad to see this fine old gun in committed hands to bring her back.

I spoke with Mr. Semmer on many occasions and the last correspondence that I had from him shortly before his passing was that he had catalogued 44 E Grades and 41 D Grades.

I am sure that you have someone in mind to undertake your stock work, however, you might do a search on the 1894 Remington Pigeon Gun that the American Custom Gunmaker's Guild commissioned a few years ago. The stock although a straight grip has the Arrow Points and cheek checkering of the classic D Grade. The Stockwork was crafted by a friend Doug Mann of St, Anne, IL.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Will

Phil,

I only know of one article and that is on the Remington 16 gauge EEO that I own which is the only Ordnance barreled E grade 16 gauge that I have ever seen, I believe it is one of a kind. Engraved by the best, in my opinion, Joseph Loy.

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...pscj6fti6b.jpg

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psivuwwlom.jpg

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psgv2pp8op.jpg

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2aph2oti.jpg

Bill

I've got two EEO-Grade 16-gauges on my list -- your 112429 from The Double Gun Journal, Volume Thirteen, Issue 3, page 59 - 63; and 110475 which was in the Bonham's June 2003 auction and pictured of pages 190 & 191 of Charles' book. They both have the "spearhead" drop points.

I wonder how many of the D Grades had ejectors, I am thinking most. Also how may had the Ordnance steel barrels?

I have not recorded a D or E quality gun without ejectors, and only two C qualities. I've found the D & E quality Remingtons pretty evenly divided between Ordnance and Damascus barrels.

Just a little update on this project. Last year Chris Dawe came down to Tucson for some quail hunting and while here started the stocking of my Remington. The wood then went back with him. This month I went for a visit to Newfoundland and Chris completed the project thanks to calling in some special favors so I could shoot it while there.
I have a few pictures and was able to hunt with it and shoot a Ptarmigan as well as a snipe with it before Chris put the finishing touches to it. I will post more pictures when it returns which I hope will be in the next month or so. I will also post my experience with the export process, the company I used and cost.
Chris is a true artist which is reflected in his dedication to details and professionalism.
Since each of these guns were customized to the customers request and since the gun had replacement wood when I purchaed it.
Chris worked with me to not only stock the gun to my dimensions with a fair amount of cast on but to lay out a checkering pattern using some references from Charles Semmers book.

More and better pictures to follow when it returns.

Great!! Wonderful to see such a great old shotgun saved.

that is a fine looing 94....charlie

What a perfect piece of wood for that gun. And to have Chris Dawe stock it, don’t get no better.

Well its been a little over a year since I purchased this gun and finally have it back in my hands.
Thanks to Chris Dawe’s world class wood work and his coordination with the Engraver and Case color teams in Canada the gun has been brought back to its former Glory.

I have attached a few pictures of the gun. Pictures taken on my Ipad so not the best but I hope will give a fair representTion of the work completed.
It will be going out with me Sunday for the last Dave of Dove season and then out again Monday for some Mearns quail.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachm...1&d=1515210541

Note the forend wood looks dark in the picture. It is not. Same color as the butt.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachm...1&d=1515211028