Refinish barrels only.

The gun should be appreciated in all its glory. Even some original owners were known to send guns back to Meriden to "rebrown barrels."






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I'd like to hear from members on refinishing or not too? I think in terms of bringing guns back to keep them alive. Case in point, a VH in very poor condition but with all the parts. Is is original when the project is done, nope...but it's beautiful again and will live on!
The other side of the coin is a gun that's nice but showing it's age gracefully. I think leaving it alone is more appropriate. Thoughts?

I think it is a personal choice and should certainly depend on the condition of the individual gun.






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I had a conversation with Brad Bachelder a while back about refinishing a P grade hammer gun, that I had posted about. An otherwise very clean little 16 gauge, with zero finish on the bbls, and just a trace of color on the receiver. The conclusion was that a proper refinish of the bbls would enhance the value of the gun. As is, the twist pattern is virtually invisible.
I have to agree with Brad. I'll take the color, over the silver. Just waiting for the money to come around.

True, there are a lot of VH guns out there, so that has to enter into the equation. Let me qualify it a bit, a few years ago I came across a Parker 12 ga. hammer gun that was very nice but very used. Had a maple stock and walnut forend and 32" barrels. The gun was sound and with the exception of the stock, all there. Should I replace the stock? What about the receiver and barrels? Well, I ended up replacing the stock and cleaning up the bores. Not a complete restoration, but it looks like a factory gun, but it's not original.

I wish you luck on your P grade Todd. My hammer gun has a ton of color on the barrels, it was the tiger maple stock that drove me crazy. With my plain jane replacement walnut stock,(appropriate for the grade) the gun is just the way I want it. What size is your receiver on your 16 ga.?

This is the 16. I don't want to mess with the rest of it, but I would like to restore the color to the bbls.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11695

My 1907 GH has barrels marked 'D3'. In my limited experience, I noted that the number next to the 'D' was the same as the number grade of the gun, thus, my GH should have had 'D2' barrels. Is that how the system worked, or am I reading too far into it?

:cheers:

I am a Parker collector in training but I believe most G, D and C grade hammerless guns were marked D. DD is normally found on BH and AH grades.

D and 3 together, normally the numeral is above the letter, indicates 3-blade Damascus. Grade 2 flats were not marked with the grade number. That started with Grade 3.






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On the left action flat of my GH, the number '2' is stamped right above the serial number. Below the serial number is 'G'. On the barrels, the number '3' is right above the 'D'.

As Dean stated, D with a number close to it is the number of crolles used in making it. I had a grade 1 hammergun with D2 bbls. I've had grade 2 guns both hammer and hammerless with D3, D4 and just D. The grade of gun stamped on the barrel flat started with Grade3 guns as Dean previously posted and is stamped closer to the breech end of the barrels on the right flat.

Very interesting and educational thread. Thanks all for the pictures. My GH 16 ser#77340 is marked with just a D, but there is an asterisk above it,

There are lots of nice patterns of damascus on parkers, even between same grade and same time period.

My two 3 dog DHs were made within 10 years of each other, one in 1892 and the other in 1899. Among the variations in them is a distinctly different style of damascus patterns. I am fond of both, though the 1899 one seems to have higher contrast to the pattern.

Thank you to all who posted and especially to those who posted pictures on this thread. I never tire of looking at Damascus, especially Parkers.

I wish that I had joined this association earlier, bought the basic books such as the Parker Story 17 years ago and followed the information on this web site that has opened my eyes to collecting these beautiful shotguns-that took such craftsmanship that Parker Bros., no slouch in iron and steel, bought them from Europeans. Yeah, "Would have, should have, could have..."

I also, as a novice, have concluded that older Damascus barrels are a good argument, in this age of most always leaving it original, for sending a gun in to one of our members who are master's at the art of bringing these patterns out. I feel that this art should be visible, unless you have some historic piece.

I keep waiting for that nice grade 16 or 20 to pop up on the market with a low "do not shoot this ready to explode weapon" price, but I fear that that train has left the station a few years back.

Oh well, at least I woke up in time to snag a few nice examples.

Best regards,

Patrick Butler

They're still out there Patrick - certainly not in the numbers of a couple of decades ago, but they pop up every so often.





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Gentlemen: we again have some confusion about barrels marked "Laminated Steel" which are most certainly not. Please see
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5520

Laminated Steel sourced in Belgium

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../405985032.jpg

NOT Laminated Steel, and one of my favorite patterns called "Toncin"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../405985031.jpg


The bottom barrels Bro. Dean showed in post #32 ARE Laminated Steel, and likely were produced by Parker Bros. by John Blaze
Please see
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...4S6OIN1bA/edit

My 1902 16 ga. GH with dual Damascus patterns

Thank you for posting that image Jeremy. Both tubes ARE Parker D4.
I added the pic here, with some other mismatched Parker D3 barrels and barrel segments, with an attribution
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

Here's a one off grade 2 hammerless gun which was discussed here a few months ago. This one is wearing a unique pattern for a GR-2 let alone other grades as well.

Drew could you help identify this pattern. The gun is marked on the barrel flat with a D. The top rib is marked Damascus steel as most GH guns are. The oddity is the pattern doesn't match typical Gr-2 guns and one tube has a Birmingham provisional proof mark stamped in the underside of the tube ahead of the barrel flat.

Help with identification would be appreciated !

Damascus Patterns
 

This one has different patterns as well.

Paul, Those barrels are Laminated Steel sourced in Belgium.
There are only a couple of other Parkers made with these barrels which would have normally, according to the grade, had Twist Steel or Damascus Steel, or Vulcan Steel. There is scant documented reason for the barrel steel switch.







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Dean is on the wrong side of the channel but close :)
They are "Fine (3 Iron) Laminated Steel" sourced in Birmingham.

The Parker "Fine Laminated" offered on Quality I and H hammer guns in the 1890s catalogs is a grade below the "Fine Damascus" used on Quality G, and referred to as Lam1 in the Parker stock books. The 1888 Colt Patent Firearms catalog also has a quality gradation from Twist to "Laminated" to Damascus, and Hunter Arms used "Laminated Steel" on Quality No. 1 L.C. Smith guns 1892-1898, and some tubes also have Birmingham proofmarks.

This is Belgian "Pointille" Laminated Steel; 1890 12g Grade 1 courtesy of Milt Fitterman

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../299792520.jpg

Dean posted this some time ago. 1899 PH Laminated Steel barrels, rib marked 'Damascus Steel', and 'T' stamp on flats. Can't tell if it's the same stuff

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../409873437.jpg

I added a couple of the images here, with an attribution Paul
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17227428

Todd: your barrels are Parker D3 3 Iron "Oxford" and the pattern is fairly symmetric. The problem appears to be in the 'take' of the coloring.

Damascus barrels remind me of finger prints, no two are exactly alike.

Very true and a good analogy. I never get tired of looking at them

One can only speculate as to how Parker Bros., Colt, and Hunter Arms got a bunch of Birmingham Laminated Steel tubes around 1890. It should be noted that this product is different than the "English machine-forged 3 rod Laminated steel" that was the big winner of the 1st Phase of the Birmingham Proof House Trial of 1888-1890
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?pref=2&pli=1

By 1890 Siemens and other fluid steels were being increasingly used on good (but not "Best") guns and Laminated Steel was going out of fashion, so the U.S. makers "got a deal".

Drew,

Thank you for the information. I suspected they were laminated but a question arose about the pattern when Brad Bachelder had them in his shop to raise a small dent in one of the tubes.

Brad suggested I contacted you to get your opinion on them. I take it from your post you think they are Birmingham Laminated hand forged rather than the machine forged laminated?

Paul: Laminated Steel production methodology and the pattern produced went through an evolution over time. There is more information here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?pref=2&pli=1

The Birmingham Proof House Trial Report of 1891 included barrels described as:
1. Belgian and English Laminated Damascus
2. Machine-forged English Best Laminated Steel, 3-Rod and 2-Rod
3. English hand-forged 3-Rod Best Laminated Steel (the winner of the 1st Phase test)

Your barrel is 3 Rod, and by the pattern is not "English hand-forged 3-Rod Best Laminated Steel" which had a much finer pattern

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../317645331.jpg

Thank you Drew ! You are the man !!!

I can't start to tell you how much I've enjoyed reading the various research pieces you've posted on pattern welded barrels. You are one of the main reasons most of the SxS's in my gatherings are wearing these beautiful hand crafted barrels. :bowdown:

Drew, I just got it out and checked. The rib marking says "PARKER BROS MAKERS, MERIDEN CONN. TWIST "
Could it be mis-marked?

You are most welcome Paul. It's been great fun, and we all stand on the shoulders of Dr. Gaddy and others who brought a renewed appreciation of the incredible artistry of Damascus barrels.

Todd: do the barrel flats have a 'T' or a 'D'?

Drew, it has a "T". Let me know if you need any additional pictures. I appreciate your expertise.

Todd Allen: if you are asking about the barrels in this thread
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11695
the pattern is indistinct but appears to be Laminated Steel

This is a late 1870s 16g Lifter labeled 'Twist' but is clearly laminated steel courtesy of Albert Zinn.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../268584504.jpg

I wonder if there is a good photo of the barrel flat stamps on the barrels shown just above?

Late 1870's ('77, '78, '79, to be exact) could be Parker Bros. own produced Laminated Steel barrels.





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Legia-P
 

Sorry to stray from the fold, but it's one of the nicest patterns I've encountered.

Will, that pattern is amazing!

Toward the breech end the pattern looks similar to Bernard but forward of that it looks like it graduates to more of a Laminated pattern.





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Steve Culver would like images of the Terrell gun, or permission to use Bill's images
785-230-2505
www.culverart.com

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../268570025.jpg

Thanks.

That's what I've always heard, too. Here are two G grades, one with D4 and one with D3. The "c" stamp I've always heard meant "crolle" but I certainly have no evidence to back that up. There isn't a lot of difference to my eye between the D3 and D4 patterns, except maybe the size of the swirls. I have seen some really large swirls on other makes that I do not particularly care for. D2's possibly?

The difference between the crolle number is the number of "swirls between the band welds. If you count 3 swirls plus a half swirl on each side between the welds it is 4-iron





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