Pete, Bill is right on the 2 5/8 inch chambers. Most 12 ga. guns built in that time period had 2 5/8 inch chambers. It was written in the stock book so I put it in the letter. Most of the 12 ga. guns on that stock book page had the same thing. The Trap Configuration was written in the stock book which is unusal. In fact, I don't recall seeing it on another gun. I am not really sure what they meant by that comment. It could have been a full comb or something else. There are plenty of double traps in the stock books that don't have the trap configuration comment.

Mark

I wonder why there are more graded trap guns VS skeet guns? The majority of skeet guns are VHE and you seldom find a VHE trap gun.

One reason is that skeet shooters would shoot different guages and need more than one gun.

Mark

Trap Guns
 

I think we have fallen into the trap of what is called in science "aliasing the data"; that is we are assigning physical properties to something by giving that thing a name.
I suggest everyone re read Ken Waite's material in Iron Men of Gundom. Prior to 1910, The GAH, and a lot of other major trap tournaments, were won by shooters using DH Parkers with proper stock dimensions. These had splinter forends, the shooter's choice of grips, perhaps a specified choke, usually "as close as possible" or "tighten", sometimes a specified trigger pull, and the shooter's stock dimensions. There was no trap gun moniker applied.
Charles Newcomb purchased a "stictly stock" DH in 1901 and won many tournaments with it before buying a DHE in 1906. He converted to the single barrel trap gun a few years later, when clay bird tournaments required only one shot. Most other competitors did the same.
DuBray's 1901 table of competitors' Parker stock dimensions shows competitors at major events used barrel lengths 26 - 32 inches and a wide varieties of weights.
The VH(E) 30 inch, F & F two frame, and the M & F 1 1/2 as well, are pretty good trap guns if the gun has your dimensions. I have a VHE two frame, 32 inch, straight grip, monte carlo, btfe, no safety, single trigger that isn't labelled trap gun, and may not have been used at trap 90 years ago, but it has won our local league's A division 6 times.

I think we are around to provenance again; a Parker is a trap gun if it can be tied to use on a trap field. Don't forget that a trapshooter's duck gun might be configured exactly as his trap gun.

Best, Austin

Some very good points Austin. The majority of trap shooters were not pros in those days, probably 98% amatuers who used their waterfowl and pheasant guns to shoot trap as most probably only had one gun.

Austin,A DHE 32" PG,BTF,recoil pad ,single trigger,vent rib,full and full gun that I have possesion of was owned by HH Ganson who was a known CT trap shooter.Also my VHE gun in the same configuration was owned by William Saxby or his father who was a noted trap shooter in the early days.As an aside Saxby was the attorney general under Nixon I believe.I bought the VHE from Mr. Murphy some years back.Both these guns have the provenance that you speak of.

So if I am understanding this correctly you are saying that Parker didn,t make a trap gun unless it can be provenanced to a trap shooter?

Trap Guns
 

With a post this long about Trap guns I thought it was time for a picture or two.

Scott, Thanks for posting those pictures! Very very nice!

Trap Guns
 

Dave; I don't think a trap gun has to be provenanced to a shooter to be a trap gun, but the light 26 inch gun shown in Du Bray's table of competitor's measurements was certainly a trap gun.
Parker had a number of flyers and leaflets in the 1920's promoting trap guns and offering retrofits of trap (btfe) fore ends, ejectors and vent ribs. Cdr Gunther, Bill, and Charlie collected s/n of late guns with vent ribs and tabulated them as Trap Guns in The Parker Story.
The brochures, including one from Jeff Kuss that appeared in Winter Parker Pages encouraged trap shooters to enhance scores with BTFE, rib etc, but did not offer a specific model with some or all of these features as a "trap gun".
I remember examining the gun that John Dunkle has brought to our New Years Day outing, and pouring over the order book page trying to decifer the entry "rib like trap". Then the bells rang; a rib like a trap gun; a ventilated rib like a single barrel trap.
I think it boils down to the old story; some people collect guns, some people collect marks on guns, and some people collect stories about guns. A nice gun, with good marks, and a good story to go along, should be very desirable to all three collectors.

Best, Austin

Thank You Austin,Parker as well as all the other gun makers of the time were out to capitalize on the popularity of the sport of trap and later the sport of skeet.Offering retrofits of existing guns made perfectly good business sense and I think from the advertising we have seen did a pretty good job.In a sense they could sell the same gun twice.

My DHE Trap is provenanced to a B.C. Melman of Cozad NE. Evidently a trap shooter of no known provenance.

Mark, I find some of the frustration and mystique is what we don't/can't know vs what we do know. I remember you telling me my VH with the annotation "Trap Configuration" was unusual. I don't know what was meant by Trap Configuration but believe it has to be related to the abnormally large comb (pic of it next another 1 1/2 frame 30" VH attached). It's stock dimensions, 30" barrels, tight chokes and double ivory beads make well suited for trap shooting but the stock seems unusual to me. I have no provenance to a trap shooter but I have a letter with information that suggests this gun was to be used on the trap field.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...r/100_0553.jpg

Richard, Ed Mellman of Cozad certainly has trap provenance. Don't worry about the spelling of his name. Parker Brothers and ATA could both have spelled his name wrong. In one year he shot, he had a 92.42 average, a pretty hefty average for his time. What year was the DHE built? I wonder if he'll let us hunt on his property?

Bill,I know I asked you this before but you never replied. Do your records have anything on HH Ganson?

Here's a couple of "Trap" guns. Top is DHE #236734; non auto safety, VR, SST, BTFE, 30" BBls; DAC is 1/16" more than DAH. Below is VHE #190872; no safety, SST, 32" bbls; fat comb. Both are 20ga. Was there a sub guage class in Trap?

Probably better business sense would have been to promote the purchase of a second gun replete with all the features most desirable to the 'champion' trap shooters of the time. But, business 'ethics' were held in higher regard then than now, so Dave, you are probably correct that they could make your Parker 'better' thereby building faith and loyalty within an already strong customer base.

There is no question in my mind that John Dunkles's Great Grandfather's trap gun is the Parker trap gun by which all other 'Parker Traps', 'Parker Double Traps', Parker 'trap configured' guns be measured. And I mean that more than any other statement I've ever made about Parker guns.

Gentlemen,This is a great discussion.We know that prior to the introduction of the single trigger(first offered in the 1922 catalog)the vent rib on double guns(1923)the trap forend(catalog offering1926)Parker produced many guns that were used at the traps.

In the hammergun era there were non of these options available so I would think that a gun with provenance to a trap shooter play's an even bigger part in determining a "Trap" gun.In that era Parker equipped guns with the Trap buttplate to promote sales of trap guns but in many cases other than that the gun was a standard gun.

Austin has mentioned and we have read in the Parker Pages,The Parker Story" and sporting advertsing of the era that many noted trap shooters used "off the shelf" guns to great success while others had guns"built" for their needs.

To my mind we have determined that 1) Many Parkers both hammer and hammerless were used at the traps by novices and professionals alike.Some were field guns some not.2) That prior to the introduction of trap gun options the use of a Parker Gun at the traps provenance plays a large roll in determining weather the gun was a trap gun or a gun used at both the traps and in the field.3)With the coming of the 1920's Parker advertising decided to cash in on the continued popularity of the sport and introduced "Trap Model" guns.I am sure industry pressure had alot to do with this and with that came the opportunity to upgrade some guns as repair work.

That is not to say that trap guns were not used in the field or duck blind just as today when we see skeet guns on the sporting clay's courses.

Wheeeww...

Fred, just as today, there were rich people and gun freaks who just had to have another shotgun. I don't know of any small gauge class in ATA trap, and women and children were happy to shoot 12 gauge guns.

SN 159,799, a 1912 BHE 12/32 ordered by DuPont agent W C Howard in Denver and believed to be for trap, but put away and not used. Only known occurrance of rounded skeleton butt.

Letters at F & F, LOP 13 7/8, 14, 14 1/8; DAC 1 3/8 DAH 2, Wt 7/15.

"A rounded skeleton butt" Sheesh, leave it to those trap shooters . . . they'll do anything to improve scores. I'm guessing Mr. Howard believed such a butt would assist gun rotation on the shoulder for rising birds . . . now that's a stretch! No wonder he never used it - :shock:

That's a beautiful gun Bruce - thanks for showing it to us - is it yours?

The usefulness of the rounded butt probably depends on a person's chest thickness. Works fine for me.

Yes, it's one of mine.

Bill, when I owned the Mellman gun, I found that Mr Mellman shot at the Kearney and Grand Island, Nebraska, gun clubs. Grand Island was more populous and on the Platte River, then said to be a mile wide, with interbraided channels, full of islands, and as much of a waterfowl hunting area as the well known eastern seaboard and California central valley areas. Many nice Parkers were sold into the area.

No Mellmans are left in the immediate area that I could find. Mr Mellman owned several Parkers and had his name engraved on the barrels.

The area was and remains prime ground for upland bird hunting. A certain little D grade top lever hammer 20ga that you saw recently came from there. Farmers used to pick up eastern hunters at the Union Pacific railroad station and drive them around the prairies in horse drawn wagons while shooting prairie grouse.

Bill my DHE Trap was built between 28 & 29 as the serial number is 230XXX. No record books for this serial number range I'm told.

There is some information on 230,000 series numbers out there. Order book #101 has some 230,000 series numbers, the list of build card numbers includes some, and the Griffin and Howe research files probably include some. None of these sources would be included in the Serialization Book data. Post the number and I'll look them up for you.

I sent for a research letter on the CHE Trap that I won 230XXX and Mark said there were no surviving records available to the PGCA but I never checked with Bob on the number. Where's that A&F listing of Parker numbers that G&H has? I thought it was an attachment to this website somewhere...

Here ya go Dean...

http://www.griffinhowe.com/Research-...al.cfm?make=34
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Yeah, click on the "research" link. When you get to the "research" link, don't click in your specific serial number. I have clicked in numbers that come up blank, yet the number appears on the lists. The lists are TWO in number, the new gun list and the used gun list. Scroll down so you can read both. Your gun could appear on either list. Remember, don't trust the computer to locate your number, read the lists.

Thanks Chris and Bill, the number isn't in those records either.
No big deal - it's not my gun anymore...

Bill the serial number is 230177.

Thanks:)

Bruce's post made me go looking for these.


.

Apologies for veering from the VHE Trap theme of this thread.

Rich, PGCA has 230,175 and Griffin and Howe has 230,178, but no 230,177.

And the CHE I owned was 230760

So close yet so far. I wonder how there can be a gap of only a couple og guns with no data.

Thanks for looking Bill.

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;14989]Gentlemen,This is a great discussion.We know that prior to the introduction of the single trigger(first offered in the 1922 catalog)the vent rib on double guns(1923)the trap forend(catalog offering1926)Parker produced many guns that were used at the traps.

Hi Dave,
I was curious if there were many guns delivered with these options prior to the catalog dates that you listed above. My father showed me an interesting 1 7/8 DOH, Straight grip, 34" VH where the factory "Trap Forend" pre-dates the 1926 catalog. Was this common?

How many of you gents have guns with Trap characteristics that pre-date the Parker catalog offerings? I think these guns could have very interesting letters. These are the early guns that I would think were ordered by trap shooters.

Patrick

Pat,Parker would retrofit guns with trap forends and vent ribs.We know of several documented guns that were refitted.