Jack, the 12-b brass shell is smaller than a 12-a brass shell, if I were at home I would send you one to try, 12-b shells are pretty hard to find, are you coming to the southern if so I will bring a 12-b shell for you to try, Gary

Hi Gary,
I'm assuming the Southern is some sort of gun show or similar event. I don't usually go to these, but could possibly make it if it isn't too far from me--I don't travel too well any more!
Where and when will this event be held?
Whether I'm able to come or not, I wanted to thank you SO MUCH for your gracious offer!

Jack, I live in Floyd V.A. The venue is in Sanford N.C. if you are in V.A. when I get back maybe we could get together and try the shell in your gun, Gary

[QUOTE=Gary Carmichael Sr;132874]Jack, I live in Floyd V.A. The venue is in Sanford N.C. if you are in V.A. when I get back maybe we could get together and try the shell in your gun, Gary[/QUOTE


That's an awful nice gesture, but a long trip even if we met halfway!

Mystery solved!!! (I think!)
 

Thanks to a very gracious and savvy P.G.C.A member with the proper equipment, I now have some accurate figures which to work!
According to this fine gentleman, the chamber runs .770 out to .761. Then the barrels are as follows:
RIGHT--.730 to .731 at the end.
LEFT--.731 out to .732. at the end
Choke (?)- cyl & cyl
Chamber--2.425 (2.5)

So what does all this mean? Darned if I know. What I DO know is that it sounds too big to be 14 or 13 gauge--shucks!!! Sounds like many of you mentioned--some version of a 12 ga. --most likely a 12b???
Anyway , a BIG THANKS AGAIN TO ALL WHO HELPED ME!!!

P.S.--Even though it was probably luck, I'm pretty proud of my" homemade barrel measuring device" With it we came up with a figure of .724 compared to actual values of .730-.732 for a difference of only six to eight thousandths. Not too shabby for a magic marker tube, a little fine sandpaper, and a ramrod! (plus someone else's caliper)

[QUOTE=Jack Hamner;132932]Please see my last post--I think we've got it close to nailed down. It would be very helpful, however, if you could take measurements of your shell and send them to me. Thanks!

Could someone that owns both a brass 12 gauge "A" and a "B" shell measure them and post their respective sizes please? I'm interested in learning more about them!

Guys I could help you but am not at home for another month yet, Gary

Not a problem, Gary--Thanks! Jack.

"The Parker Story" states in Vol II, page 524, first column, that a 12b brass shell measures 0.765" at it's base. This is exactly five thousanths less than the chamber opening of 0.770. The small difference is for fit, to insert and remove the shell. The bore sizes are 12ga.

Thanks, Dave for this valuable information. So the figures Mr. J. arrived at are within the tolerances for a 12b identification on the gun?

(.765-.770 Parker Story)
(.770-.761 Measured readings)

And one final rookie question--Would the 30 1/4" barrels have been something pretty commonly found on the 12b gun?

I would think 12b. There is no other chamber size close.

Thanks, Dave.......Case closed, thanks to you and many others. What a great bunch of people on this forum!

Jack,

You need to get measurements of the internal diameter of bores of the barrels away from the muzzle and the chambers. If the gun is a 13 gauge, then the bore diameter will be between 0.702" and 0.719". The muzzle diameter is not suitable because even very early Parker's had constricted choke bores. The chambers are not suitable because the gauge size of a shotgun is defined based on bore diameter. As T. D. S. and Capt. J. A. Purdey in their wonderful 1936 book "The Shotgun" explain on pg. 141---"The gauge division 12/1 includes any bore of diameter .730 to .740 inclusive; and the gauge division 12 any bore of diameter from .729 to .720. If the diameter is .740 the gun is not a 12-bore but it's gauge size is 11, and the gun is proved as an 11 bore."

They go on to say: ,"The gauge size of barrel is always taken at a point 9" from the breech end."

If I can be of any help, please let me know. If you have captured a 13 gauge, it would be a great find indeed.

Richard B. Hoover

Jack,

If you have not yet been able to measure the bores, give me a call at 256-337-4082 and I will try to help. I have all equipment to measure the bores and chambers of any Parker barrel to a precision of 0.0001".

Richard

Richard,
I just got around to looking at the forum again and saw your two posts. I would like to thank you so much for this information. I'm not quite sure what all this means in terms of my gun. My friend got bore measurements of .730/.731 in the right barrel and .731/.732 in the left. These were taken from the end of the chambers(.770-.761) to the end of the barrels. So would this indicate a gauge other than 12? I'm confused again! Sounds like it's within the range of some sort of 12 gauge, though, if I'm reading the figures correctly.

Jack,

Bore dimensions of 0.730" to 0.732" are nearly spot on for the precise bore size (0.729") of the "perfect" 12 gauge. This is because 12 lead balls of precisely 0.729" diameter weighs exactly 1 pound.

The chamber dimensions of your gun are correct for the Parker 12B brass shot shell (0.765-0.770") but too small for the Parker 11B brass shell (0.790"-0 .800") or the Parker paper 12 or the Parker or UMC 12A brass shell (0.805"-0.810") which is the same as a modern 12 gauge shell. (Modern 12 gauge shells are too big to fit in your chambers. If you want to shoot your gun you will need to get some Parker or UMC 12B shells and hand load them.)

Hence your gun is a (very slightly over bored or very lightly pitted) 12 gauge Parker that was chambered for Parker 12B brass shells.

I am very much interested in hearing more about it. Could you please let me know the serial number, grade, what it says on the barrel rib? If you send me your e-mail address I will be happy to send you a copy of my Double Gun Journal article from the Winter 2008 Volume that contains all of these dimensions for the Parker chambers, bores, and shot shells.

Yours,

Richard B. Hoover

Thank you so much for this information, Richard! I can't figure out how to reload pictures from my album, but you can view them on my post of 2/22/13 under the title "14 gauge?". Thanks again very much! Jack.

Parker chamber measurements are in TPS, p. 519, in the chapter " Barrels, Bores, Chambers and Frames". Answers to most Parker questions are found in TPS.

Bruce,

Thanks, those are good points. However, The chamber dimensions on page 519 of The Parker Story are good for later model Parkers in 8, 10, 12, etc. gauges only. This table does not cover all the chamber sizes found in the early under lifter guns. These were typically chambered for 10A or 10B, 11 paper or 11B brass, or 12 paper, 12A or 12B or extremely rarely for the 14A brass shells. Many of the early Parker 11-gauge guns were chambered for Parker or UMC brass 12A shells, which have the same dimensions as the modern 12 ga shell as shown on TPS pgs. 544-550. Some 11's were even chambered for 10A shells. Some of the underlifter 12-gauge guns were chambered for 12B brass shells, which can lead to confusion and the conclusion that these guns are 13 or 14 gauge (Just as was reported by Larry Baer for the Parker Prototype no. 06 in the Meriden Historical Society,which has perfect 12-bore barrels and was chambered for 2"long brass shells of diameter that can accept a modern 14 gauge shell.

Richard

Jack,

Did you get measurements at several points along each barrel of your gun? If so could you please post these values? I am very much interested in these results as I am trying to get better understanding of the bores and chambers of the very early (pre-1975) under lifter hammer guns.

Thanks,

Richard

So am I right in thinking that what you're saying is mine is still probably a 12b?

So am I right in thinking that what you're saying is mine is still probably a 12b? Thanks, Jack.

Jack,

Your gun is a cylinder bore (no choke) 12-gauge.

If you want to shoot it you need to get some 12B brass shells and hand load them. The reason it is particularly interesting is that it is widely believed that the early 12 gauge Parker shotguns were significantly over bored. However the Parker order books show that almost all of the 11-gauge Parker's were chambered for the 12A brass shells. Bill Furnish and I measured a number of early under lifter Parker 12-gauge guns that were chambered for the smaller 12B (like your gun) or 11B (like John Hanson' no. 2505 Parker) brass shells.

These mysteries are finally beginning to make a lot of sense.

Thanks for your help.

Richard

Here's John Hansen's Parker No. 2505 with Parker Bros 12B shells in the original case.



.

Dean,

Thanks for posting the images of John Hansen's Parker b2505. I measured the bores of that gun and they are perfect 0.729" 12-gauge size bores. In the images you posted you can not read the Parker Headstamp, but if you have higher resolution photos you will see that these shells are all bearing the extremely rare Parker 11B head stamp and the chambers are of 11B dimension. This is another early example that proves that Parker made early under lifter guns that we're not over bored, but conformed precisely to the well established definitions of perfect bore sizes for 8-ga; 10-ga; 11-ga and 12--ga guns. Furthermore, the powder and shot charge loads they used for proof testing were consistent with the Birmingham Proof House requirements as set forth in the British proof act.

If you have higher resolution images of the 11B shells perhaps you could also post them.

Dean, Thanks for those great images of a truly magnificent Early Parker Underlifter.

Yours,

Richard B. Hoover

Richard, I checked my photo file on this gun and I don't have any images that clearly show the headstamps. I presumed they were 12B shells because all I could make out was the Parker Bros., the West Meriden, Ct., and the B but the gauge stamp is not legible at all in any of my photos. I photographed the gun in 2009 and I should have made sure the pictures I took were sharp. If I ever get to see the gun again I'll do a better job of it.

It's really good to have you back here on the forum after your absence of a few years. Your expertise and knowledge of these old Parkers is a tremendous resource for the entire "Parker community". Thank you!

Best, Dean

Frank Cronin has the twin to John Hansen's in terms of grade, condition and features, but I don't recall the gauge of Frank's wonderful gun... perhaps Frank will come on and tell us about his gun.

Dean,

Thanks for the kind words. We visited with John during the trip to Ilion and Meriden that Charlie, Ron, Sam! Ed and I took in 1996. I am pretty sure I included details about B2505 in an article I wrote for Parker Pages in 1996 or 1997, but I can't find my copies of those old issues. I think Ron Kirby wrote an article about the trip as well. Do you still have a complete set of the Parker Pages from this period? Is there a Table of Contents listing of the articles and are copies still available?

Richard

Dean,

I found the Parker Pages index and see that Charlie Herzog also wrote an article about our ilion and Meriden trip and that Ron Kirby May have solved the F.9.R. Mystery. Are these old issues available in hard copy or .pdf form?

Richard

I have all of the original copies of Parker Pages and I'll look for your article. When I find it I can scan it and send it to you or you can contact Jim Hall and have him send you the issue.

There is a complete updated index of all issues of Parker Pages and will be made available as soon as Robin Lewis and I are done editing the file. I'm the 'foot dragger' on this project but I'll get my edits to Robin soon.

Dean,

That would be great. I have some of the issues but can't find others. I think my articles about the Meriden trip and the T-latch Parkers were published in late 1996 or early 1997

It is in issue 3 in 1996. "A Quest for the elusive 11 gauge Parker"

NO!---Thanks for YOUR help!!! If it weren't for you and so many other dedicated authorities on these Parkers, I would never have gotten to the bottom of this story! When I bought the gun, it was advertised as a 14 gauge, and had it not been for you and the many, many others who helped me, I would have just assumed I had a 14 gauge! Thanks again! Jack.

Jack,

I am sorry that your gun was not a 14-gauge as advertised. The seller may have honestly thought it was a 14 as well. In that case he may be willing to make an adjustment for you. I do not know where the misconception about Parker gauges came from. Many measurements on early Parkers clearly have shown that from the very beginning the bores and chambers of the Parker shotguns were finished with extreme precision. Your gun provides another important data point, showing that Parker was not over boring the early barrels out of the gauge size range as was suggested in early writings.

They did recommend using larger size wads, to achieve a better seal in order to produce the hardest shooting gun they could, but that did not alter the relationship between bore diameter, Gauge number and the proof loads they used to test the barrels before the gun was finished.

Thanks for your information about this early Parker.

Yours,


Richard B. Hoover

Thanks, Richard, but an adjustment is not necessary. I do believe the seller thought it was a 14 gauge, too. In fact, this very same gun was sold on a firearms website several years ago, and it was advertised as a 14 gauge at that time. Regardless of the gauge, I'm happy with the gun.

Richard, the only values we got are as follows:
Chamber .770 to .761

Bores
R .730/.731
L. .731/.732

Sorry for the delay--din't see this one until now!

Dean,

I am missing my articles on 11-Gauge Parkers; History of Shotgun Chokes; Meriden Parker #90 & Prototype Parker that were on published in Parker Pages Issues.

Vol. 2/No. 4 July/Aug/ 1995
Vol. 3/No. 4 May/June 1996
Vol. 3/No. 6 Nov/Dec. 1996

If you could send me Digital Copies of my articles it would be very helpful and greatly appreciated. I plan to attend the SXS, and I will bring my Bore and Chamber Gauges with hopes that I will be able to measure some Early Parkers.

Thanks,


Richard B. Hoover

Richard, I was saving my 10,000th post on this forum for something worthwhile and where I could help someone in this great fraternity... Thank you for giving me that opportunity. I will be more than happy to send those electronic files this evening.

Again, Thank You!

Dean

Dean,

Thanks. That is wonderful. I had all of those issues of Parker Pages but took the out of my binder and have no idea where they are now. In the past 18 years, since those articles were written, the mysteries of the Parker 11 gauge gun are slowing becoming more clear.

I have just made my reservations at the Baymont Inn for the SXS. I could not book a room at the Hampton but apparently the Baymont is just across the street. I now have to reserve my seat for the Banquet, so I need to find the info about sending in my check. Larry Potterfield may also come and bring his interesting Parkers. I hope so, as I am looking forward to meeting him and seeing his guns.

Thanks for all your help.


Richard:rotf: