New fangled fluid steel ruptures with factory loads

Bismuth Magnum Game Load 2 3/4" 1 3/8 oz. shot

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../273129386.jpg

Winchester No-Tox Bismuth

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../408334384.jpg

I share the opinion that almost all chamber and barrel blow ups are a result of:
1. Reload operator error
2. Inadequate wall thickness: Chamber lengthened, over-honed or eccentrically honed barrels
3. Obstruction

Unfortunately, unless money is to be made from a personal injury suit, the cause is never established, and more Damascus mythology is regurgitated.
The idea that the cause(s) can not be determined is silly. Companies make big $s investigating oil rig blow ups and planes falling from the sky. I received a PM from a guy that one oil rig blow out was traced to One weld, made by One guy, at One facility in Houston.

I know with 8's and some 10's there are no other choices...but regardless, it's more risky IMO. I can state this because I have never been able to get my own work error-free enough to satisfy myself, in any aspect of life. If I loaded 100 shells, I could probably get them all right. But there will come a number - 548, 1,320, 11,923 etc. where I make a mistake. If I knew what that number was...but I don't.

I am in more danger driving to work than in shooting my reloads!

If one lacks enough attention to detail to load their own ammunition then they should not.

BFT,

Makes a solid point that attention to detail is everything in reloading.

Drew What was the cause in the picture you posted above? My guess is obstruction given the position of rupture. Unlikely a shell issue itself I would think.

I am lucky I Live in an area where 10 ga. empty once fired hulls are easy to come by. I never reload a case more than twice, and if it is a hunting load only once, and discard.

I have shot Alcan brass cases for over 50 years, no base wad in these cases, and I still look down the barrel after every shot.

At 70++++ I now only load shells in the early Am when my head is at the top of its game, and like Mark I feel safe when shooting them.

When loading you can not be to cautious, and staying focused is a must…
David

"If one lacks enough attention to detail to load their own ammunition then they should not." - BFT

Reloaders have confidence in their ability to safely assemble shotgun shells, but mistakes can happen. They accept the fact that although a mistake is improbable, it is not impossible. Those who choose not to reload simply don't see it as worth the risk, period. I reload and do all I can to eliminate risk.

There are plenty of times, especially after a day's work that I am so brain dead that I never reload!
When I do reload I do not even turn on the radio. I want tunnel vision toward my loading!

if you think "confidence" in your ability is the defining factor - you don't drive on public highways :rotf: :rotf:

I load in an area with no distractions and still set rounds aside to pull apart because i did not like the way the wad felt going in or didn't like the crimp.

If something does interrupt me- that round gets rejected

I weigh sample charges often - even if I am sure its the same bushing I used last time. and the left over powder goes back in the can so that i don;t have to remember or trust having labeled the MEC bottle

I shoot reloads in doubles so that I can look down the tubes,

and this stuff still makes me nervous :corn:

BTW - having shot flintlocks for years in friendly competitions - every one of the few incidents I saw were due to the loader being distracted in the process.

John: To my knowledge, neither shooter measured the wall thickness nor made any other effort to diagnose the blow out. I contacted the gentleman using the Winchester No-Tox and had no response. That is why I so appreciate that a few fellas were interested enough to send me their barrels for an evaluation, but frustrated in the knowledge that there are a lot more out there and simply for the cost of shipping one way we could develop a data base of 'disasters afield'.

This Sterlingworth had been honed to .739" with resultant wall thickness of .018"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../406729360.jpg

I've got a Smith 4E Chain Damascus getting radiography right now that was honed to .016

I have seen two ruptures in fluid steel, both 20ga, one a Parker, the other an L C Smith. At the rupture line, the Parker was .008, the Smith was .010. Both barrels where not torn could be flexed by heavy thumb pressure.

yes I agree, I don't think I have bought more than 10 factory boxes of any trap loads in my 45 years of shooting, I load 100 % of all my clays and hunting loads. I though the same thing about driving to work, than I went down a few post and read this one, hit it on the head Mark! Glad no one was hurt :) scott

I'm waiting for followup replies to ban reloaded shells. Some people can't afford to shoot new shells, at least not in volume shooting.

It won't be over this - but I expect the politicians to get around to it any day

Drew

The examples you posted of mid-bore longitudinal splits tend to occur frequently in fluid steel barrels. This usually happens due to one of the following:

Barrel wall thickness under .025 thickness.

Partial bore obstruction. cocked wad or Item in the bore IE: spider nest, stick, snow etc.

Overpressured factory load or reload.

If there is a bulge at or near the terminal end of the split, it confirms an obstruction.
The lack of bulge indicates insufficent barrel wall thickness usually combined with an agressive choke constriction.
Over pressure generally manifests in multiple splits with 90 degree tears at the terminal ends.

Brad

thanks Dr Drew.

Brad thank you. That's the kind of info we need.

A data base would be great. Please keep up the good work.

All my best,

John

The Brits regularly proof barrels under 25 thou. Kinda makes me wonder.

If I'm not mistaken, the Brits consider .018" to be acceptable minimum for proofing, right? Or for shooting?

While some may say it is worthless in the case of an accident, I use a leather hand guard on all of my doubles. I use a 12 gauge guard on my 10s. It may never help, but one never knows how much the leather and spring steel inside it may go towards saving a hand or fingers, plus it saves the bluing and hot hands in September shooting at doves. Does not bother the sight plane for me. Never know it is there.

Greg and John,

I sure won't give you any flak for your thoughts on reloading. I will tell you though I have reloaded thousands of cartridges both rifle and pistol and quite a few shotshells. I have never had any problems with reloads of my own or my brother's making. The problems we have had with cartridges and shotshells have ALL been with factory ammunition. No guns blown up but faulty primers, squib loads, loads with no primer in the case on one occasion. Each of us makes their own choice of whether to reload or not. For my and my brother's short 10 guns reloading is the only way to make a shooter out of a piece of steel and wood.

Dennis

I reload and have experienced two problems in 40+ years that caused squib loads. One involved claybuster wads that were poorly molded, the base was not fully formed and it caused the gas to escape causing a squib. The second issue was my fault I picked up shells that were damp and reloaded them before they were dry--causing squibs.
Last weekend shooting sporting clays one of my friends was shooting RST's and experienced two squibs and another friend discovered a RST 2 1/2" 12ga shell there the crimp had opened about half open, the shell was discarded but he shot the rest of the box with no issues. A third friend was shooting Wally World Winchester promo loads and the plastic tube was not properly inserted into the base, a piece of the tube was actually on the outside of the case rim (this not the first time I have seen this defect). So problems happen with both factory shells and reloads. I think the best advise is to inspect shells before chambering them and inspect your barrels for a blockage after every shot----wear proper safety glasses and a shooting glove.

Brian: regarding British proof and MWT. There is no minimum below which the proof house will refuse to prove the barrels. They do notify the owner if they survive proving with less than .020". And BTW if pitted, the barrels must be honed prior to proving.

See
http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/BarrelThickness.htm
and
http://docs.google.com/a/damascuskno...hIiY62Hx4/edit

Thank you all. Your opinions and information have been a great help to me in understanding what happened and how to improve my reloading. I do tend to run hulls into the ground but Chromax's photo of the federal hull got me to cut down some of my older hulls. While all have base wads those where in very bad repair and went into the trash. I suspect the shell that blew had a crack in the hull and let go in the area of the barrel flaw. Each hull is inspected after shooting and before reloading. Anyway I pulled out all my 10's and checked them again under a very strong light and really took my time, found 16 with cracks wad problems or pin holds. As much shooting as I do all factory is not an option but thanks to your help and suggestions I do it smarter.
If there is another group as well informed and more willing share information I have not met them. Proud to be a PGCA member and look forward to seeing a lot of you at the Southern and yes the hammer 10 will be there.
Dave

Drew: Are you having the barrels radiographed to look for cracks, etc. ? How obvious is a crack in the barrel on these radiograph films ? Reason I ask is this: I had my ca. 1886 hammer gun radiographed, and although they stated there was a "linear defect" - I'd challenge anyone to see it on the film. My dilemma was that my naked eyes saw what looked like a partial circumfrential crack (as if it was following the weld lines in my twist barrel), but the radiograph flim didn't seem to show much at all... How can eyes be more telling than an X-ray ? (I should probably just send the barrels to Brad !)

John: I believe (hope) that radiography is the best non-destructive means to assess what is happening within the barrel wall; inclusions, voids, weld failures, non-weld cracks. Just as with an MRI of any body part, interpretation of course requires an expert and experienced human eye. No one at TEAM has x-rayed Damascus barrels, but they have lots of experience in industrial applications of radiography.

I would very much suggest that a 'linear defect' seen on radiography is real, and really a crack, and really an indication that the barrel is unusable. Of course, sectioning the barrel for photomicrographs would confirm the diagnosis if you would like to donate the barrel to science :)

Unfortunately, the two barrels I've had x-rayed so far show only what is very likely to be pits on (not within) the bore wall; defects that are not linear and can be correlated to the findings on visual exam of the bore

Negative image - defects grey/black. The white stuff is felt to be porosity in the solder

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../408815326.jpg

I'm meeting with the techs at TEAM again in the am and should have more images thereafter, and another barrel is arriving today with an apparent crack visible on the outside of one barrel. SO I will have at least three more barrels to x-ray for the data base (total of 5).

One thing clearly shown is that the mythology that pattern welded barrel walls are 'a mass of welds, voids, inclusions, slag, etc.' is wrong. We'll have more evidence when the photomicrographs are done on the barrel blow out analysis.

My radiograph wasn't as "nice" as that one (it appeared to be darker, overall). In some areas (my radiograph), it did look like you could see the twist pattern, so I can see where the "mass of welds" crowd may have formed that opinion. What still stuns me is that you can PLAINLY see my "defect" with your eyes when you look down the barrel. (Plus, you can get a dental pick to "grab" the defect, too.) With all of that "low tech" evidence, if it still only shows up (on an X-ray) as a faint line that only the most acute & trained eyes can see, I have little faith in it being able to catch cracks that aren't so obvious. But obviously, it's the best method available, short of a destructive test...

Don't mind me - I'm just bummed out that the only gun that ever fit me perfectly has a cracked barrel.


Thanks - take care !

OUCH!! David, glad to hear you're OK!! I saw the same thing happen here at our range about 4 years ago. The shooter was using low pressure factory shells made specifically for vintage guns. The gun let go, left barrel, right at the leading edge of the chamber. Nobody was hurt but the shooter had some powder burns (very minor) on the left side of his face. Another member of our squad had a small piece of shrapnel hit his forearm and stick there. Sadly the barrels were ruined, happily the squad was fine.