Right now, I'm leaning towards that number/fraction being the width across the breach. This should also be the width across the bolsters. Every so often there is extra info to the right of the number/fraction and I can make out the abbreviation for barrels (Bbl).

Brian, in the example of a stock book page in TPS, that's from 1923 and the page I scanned is from 1880 so they may have changed as to what was put in each column. I do agree that what you see is dram equivalent. But notice that 12ga's were at 3dr and 16ga's were 2 1/2. Parker recommended 3dr for 12ga's and 2 3/4 to 3 dr for 16ga's.

In looking at a lot of stock book pages, the most common number/fraction found is 2 3/8 which would be a 2 frame. 2 frames were the most common for 12ga back then and also used sometimes for the 10ga. 2 1/4 would be a 1 frame, 2 3/8 would be a 2 frame (most commonly found in my scan), 2 12 for a 3 frame, and 2 5/8 for a size 4 frame.

S/N's 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6 are the only examples found with these numbers/fractions. I'll have Larry Frey measure across the bolsters on his hammer gun and see if correlates to what is found in the stock book. If anyone has a hammer gun in those S/N ranges, measure the width across the bolsters and let me know.

One other thing, did they make shells back in those days that correlate to those numbers/fractions? Did they make 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 1/4 2 5/8 dram shells???

Brian, here is the problem with adding that info in letters. They are only found in the S/N range of 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6. For some reason, whoever copied that book, starting at 16985 they loaded the stock book biased to the left which gave those numbers. Usually, the right end got chopped off after the total weight. By biasing the book to the left, they excluded the first column which gives the barrel steel and grade, example Dam3. Now if I am doing a research letter and only have the stock book in that S/N range, I can't tell what the grade or barrel steel that particular gun had. Therefore, I can't do a letter on that gun.

Hopefully some day, we'll get those stock books and try and recopy them.

Below is a letter I recently received from Chuck with a note asking me to measure the chamber length to see if it matched the 2 3/8 he found while doing the letter. It did not, but after reading this thread and Dean's thoughts on frame size I checked the gun and sure enough the gun is a two frame with 1 1/8" between the firing pins and 2 3/8" across the breech face. If I was a betting man my bet is Dean got it right.:bowdown:

Hello Mr. Frey,

Parker shotgun, serial number 18127, was ordered by H.T. Hudson of Portland OR in December of 1881 and shipped on December 7, 1881. The order was placed by Dexter W. Parker. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 10, it was a Quality D, Lifter Action Hammer Gun, 12-gauge. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 30 inches.

The price was $125.00.

According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 6, the stock configuration was a pistol grip and its specifications were: Length of Pull: 14 ¼”, Drop at Heel: 2 5/8”, Weight: 8 pounds. The chokes were patterned RH 140 and LH 140 pellets of size 8 shot in a 24” circle at 45 yards.

Don't know if this will help. But I just measured two of my hammerguns. Grade 2 16 gauge lifter serial 20121 0 frame is 2.060 across the breech and my 12 gauge top lever 1 frame serial number 26145 is 2.210 across the breech

Chuck, Parker hammer gun #15901, #2 frame 10ga, measures 2 3/8 across the bolsters.
#17895, #3 frame 10ga measures 2 1/2 across the bolsters.
# 9848 #2 frame 10ga measures 2 3/8 across the bolsters.
17895 might be in your book. I think your conclusion is correct, indicates frame size.

Thanks for that information Robert. It pretty much answers the question of what those numbers/fractions represent.

I was hoping someone would post dimensions of a 10ga on a 3 frame. Your S/N 17985 shows in the stock book as 2 1/2 so it correlates. Your 10 ga S/N 9848 and 15901, although not in the S/N's that have that info, being 2 3/8 would make them a size 2 frame and we know Parker made many 10 gauges on the size 2 frame.

I'm pretty sure the mystery has been solved.

Thanks everyone!

Serial number 17150 is a 10 gauge 3 frame gun with a 2 1/2" dimension across the bolsters.

Chuck, You switched numbers. It's 17895, not 17985. It is a 3 frame 10ga and measures 2 1/2. I also have 51092, 3 frame 10ga, measures 2 1/2 as well.:) I agree mystery solved.

Chuck, What does the stock book say about o frame guns?

The 1913 example, at least, lists 0 frames simply as "0". That seems to be the oddity in all of this.

I measure 2 1/16" on all of my 16 gauge 0-frame hammer guns.

There has been a lot of discussion trying to disprove Dean's conclusion. To answer Brian's question, the "inches" frame size disignation was used because factory workers were selecting frames to build individual guns. Frames were not marked as to frame size. The easiest way for workers to select the proper frame was with the "inches" reference. For those still in doubt, reference the discussions in prior threads where order book references to the "2 1/2 frame" were put together with actual #3 frame guns. I own one such gun and order book copy, and have seen the order book references for others. If Chuck would like to post a reference to such an order, check the order for gun #125,757, a 12 gauge #3 frame two barrel DH.

I don't doubt it at all. Especially since I provided a photo of a stock book page where that info is clearly labeled as Frame Size.

It is just interesting information. We are always learning thins as to how these guns were made.

According to recent posts, some are still not convinced. I hope Chuck provides the reference to #125,757 in the order book. I have already paid for a letter on this gun so Chuck should be free to share the information.

Here is the information on Bill's gun.

Hello Mr. Murphy:

Parker shotgun, serial number 125757, was ordered by Charles L. Bush in Mount Clair, NJ on January 25, 1904, and shipped on April 14, 1904. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 62 it was a DH hammerless, 12-gauge on the “2 ½ frame”. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 32 and 28 inches. Its stock configuration was a capped pistol grip and a dark stock was specified. According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 45, its specifications were: Length of Pull: 14”, Drop at Heel: 3 3/8”, and Weight: 8 pounds and 7 ounces 32 inch and 8 pounds 4 ounces for the 28 inch. The order specified the chokes in the 32 inch barrels at RH close and LH close and the 28 inch barrels at RH cyl and LH mod. The price was $100.00 plus $50.00 for the extra set of barrels.

According to Order Book No. 65, the gun was returned on November 15, 1904 by The Charles Parker Company in New York, NY to “put in new cocking hook”. There was no charge. According to Order Book No. 80, the gun was returned on March 11, 1910 by The Charles Parker Company to “replace top lever spring (.75) and clean and repair locks ($1.50)”.

Thanks, Chuck. This is a good example of the factory designation in inches (2 1/2) of a gun with a #3 frame. This is also an example of a guy who knew how to order a shotgun. I almost didn't buy this gun, traded a Smith and Wesson 38-44 for it.

Bill, at first I wasn't sure what you were referring to as far as the 2 1/2 frame. It would have been clearer if Parker would have put the inches symbol in the order book (2 1/2") but they didn't. Frame sizes as stamped on the barrel lug were not in inches but could be converted to inches using the table found in the Serialization Book or the stock book. Parker used whole numbers for the frame size except in later years when the 1/2 frame was introduced.

Just one more piece of the Parker puzzle solved.

Chuck, like you, I have never seen the frame size referred to in inches in a Parker Brothers order or stock book. It is always referred to simply as a 2 1/2 frame with no mention of inches.

Chuck, like you, I have never seen the frame size referred to in inches in a Parker Brothers order or stock book. It is always referred to simply as a 2 1/2 frame with no mention of inches. I have never seen a reference to what we think of as a frame size in a Parker Brothers order, like a 1 or 1 1/2.