Interesting discusion fellows, I am not a shooter but a collector, but will give my opinion on the subject, The gun used in competition should be as originally configured at Parker, Gary

There are some excellent competitive shooters in our vintage SXS world. It seems most of them shoot heavy, long barreled 12 ga guns . I greatly respect and admire these shooters and enjoy watching them break targets. I do not necessarily want to shoot against them in sub gage events by allowing them to temporarily insert a "gage mate" in their 12 gage and have an unfair advantage . This is an amateur sport and I do not want to see it dominated by the pros. I have a good friend that is deadly with his long barreled 12, but I can kick his ass in 20ga and 28ga and greatly enjoy doing so! The light small gage guns are a different game and I want to keep it that way. JMHO
David

Lots of great comments here, but after reading David's last post, it highlights the unfair advantage I was looking for. I too travel to these events with sometimes 9 or 10 guns in tow, and switching between them does often affect my shooting. Going from a heavy long barreled 12 to a light and whippy 20ga is much different than shooting the same heavy gun with gauge mates. I can see where this would give the competitive shooter who practices repetition with the same gun an unfair advantage in one of these events.

I do agree though that two barrel sets, or guns that have been re-barreld or permanently re-chambered to a different guage should also be allowed to compete.

Mike

Ditto Mike's comments.

Thanks Mike,

That's what I was looking for.

I totally agree about tube sets and the like.

I like to restore/ resurrect guns that otherwise were deemed junkers.

This usually involved monblocking a gun. I have enough 12 gauges so I have moved on to subgauges.

My current thought for a project will be a set of 34" 20 gauges barrels for my C grade hammer gun.

The 34" 28 ga and 410 are already in the works.

You have a good memory John. That was a couple of years ago. It was a british double gun with 10ga bores and 12ga chambers. I think was I using my GHE Skeet that day or possibly a favored VH, both 12's, either way I was not out gunned that day I was just plain out shot. The winning shooter was Mal MacGregor and when he is on his game it doesn't matter what he is shooting.

I would like to hear from Pete Lester if he would be willing to respond.

He made reference to a competition up north where a shooter was using a british 10 bore that was rechambered to a 12 ga. I think he even included some pictures at the time.

I would greatly appreciate his opinion and inputs on this topic.


Again thanks for all the opinions and thoughts guys.

Thanks Pete I wasn't fast enough on the key board.

John, Mal often shoots a Purdey hammer pigeon gun with very tight chokes. On the skeet field he consistently breaks 24 and 25's. He prefers full choke for both skeet and sporting clays. That day was the first time he used that gun and he broke a 95x100 if I remember correctly. I was runner up with an 83 I think. All targets were within the range of a skeet choke, if anyone had a handicap it was Mal. He is a gifted shooter and nice guy to share a beer and pizza with after the shoot.

I am a firm believer it is hard to handicap a good shooter. Back in the 90's when hand fed traps were still prevalent in ATA trap shooting, the old Winchester traps were set in the 2 hole for soft angles. The ATA made a rule one year for 3 hole targets with the idea it would help even the competition. Singles and Handicap, nothing changed, the leader board was still filled with same usual names with the same great scores.

To digress a bit. Back in the 70's there was a Can-Am sponsored moto cross racer named Jimmy Ellis. I was at a motocross track in Maine and he was there. They put Jimmy 100 yards behind the starting line of the 250cc Pro class, facing backwards with a dead engine. He still managed to catch the field and win the race.

It's hard to beat God given talent whether it's in shotgun sports or racing.

I agree that a gun that has been re-barreled, sleeved, or a new barrel fitted to the gun is fine as long as that barrel is true to the gage event. I do not think gluing new chambers to reduce the gage is "cricket". This is a fun game and no one wants "gage police ,just honor among shooters. I know it is being done but not so it is currently a problem. We all know the rule is out there and if we chose to skirt it that is an individual choice. If I see someone with gage mates etc I will just not shoot with them. If a new event comes up in 2014 that allows that I would have to decide to participate or not-probably not
David

.....or who he is shooting against!

John are you referring to the rule in the challenge that dissalowes sub guage tubes?

I'm not in favor of allowing tube sets to reduce guage for the reasons mentiond previously. A 5.5 lb 28 handels differently than a 8lb 12 and so it should.

I believe the guns should be original as they left the factory. NO modifications. I see guns at the challenge that are Parker or Smith in frame only. The barrels are new, forcing cones lengthened to reduce recoil, ported barrels etc. These are supposed to be vintage shoots with vintage guns not vintage frames with modern upgrades.

I think the PGCA/LCS challenge has some other challenges as well but thats a different topic.

Rich, tubes are allowed at the Challenge, for composite barrelled guns only. It's not much of an advantage in that event, since it's a "heads up" competition. Small gauge competitions are a different situation altogether. I won the .410 event at the first Southern Side by Side with a tubed 20 gauge Damascus Parker when it was legal. The rules were wisely changed and it kept me from doing it again. I agree that tubed guns in small gauge events are an unfair advantage and violate the spirit of the event. So far, "Truit Specials" are legal, but probably still violate the spirit of the event.

Murphy,

What does "Truitt Specials" mean.

I think you are way out of line.

check your PMs we should talk!!!!

COB,

I was not thinking of the Challenge Event.

I was thinking of the subgauge events on the sporting courses at these events.

My original post/ question was brought up after multiple conversations with some folks who want to start up/ grow a shoot. They were interested in allowing tube sets so to include more shooters. I raised the question to get a feeling on how our group felt about this.

In my opinion, if you want to start up a new event you can run it by any set of rules you choose to use or devise. "The more the merrier" is a worthy base for starting a new shoot.

John, great thread. I started shooting these vintage events because I was bored with the registered target events where everyone shot the same guns, be they K-80's, Beretta's or whatever. The guns meant nothing, only the final scores. To me the gun is everything and the vintage events brought out some killer SxS's that one might never see or get a chance to shoot. I now shoot for fun, with all originally configured guns. My opinion is shoot what you want, tubes sets, choke tubes but if we are to stay true to the vintage tradition, then only original guns, NO modifications. If anyone wants to experience the true vintage tradition, then please join us at Drake's. We shoot for fun, no scorecards, lots of harassment, some pretty nice guns and we come away totally relaxed. It's always fun watching Mark O. blow confetti out of those 10's and crush targets.

So, the truth is out on how Dr. John shots soooo well. It is his " Truitt Special". I knew he was beating me by "cheating". JUST KIDDING. John is a very good shooter and does not need to "cheat" but I will use that as an excuse. Frank

I think a Truitt special is any gun in John's hands, be it a Red Ryder or his Parker hammer gun with the 34" barrels. What I have seen and heard of the hammer gun is all above board.

From what I have seen and heard, the 34" hammer gun has new barrels that are like a set of barrels could have been made "back in the day". Nothing wrong with that from where I stand.

A true "Straight-up Guy"



.

Its that guy on his right, Dave "The Champ" Fjelline you have to watch out for!!! They do not come better than "Humble John" Truitt, as a person, gentleman, a friend or shooter.
David

I corresponded with Dr. Truitt by PM indicating that the term "Truitt Special" is a compliment and refers to a big long heavy gun that shoots shells legal in the small gauge classes but without insert tubes. I will stand by my statement that these attempts at the win do violate the spirit of the game. It will cause those who compete with "little" original guns to vacate the competition. I think Daryl and I are on the fence about when the big guns should be allowed. Obviously, the Vintager sanctioned shoots should be a place where they should be discouraged, since the vintage original guns are what they want to see. The Southern Side by Side is another type of shoot altogether. No one much dresses up Vintager style and no one much pays dues to Ray Poudret. Maybe at shoots such as this, the rules should allow rebarrelled big guns in the small gauge events, which they do, and maybe they should go back to allowing tubed guns, which they once did but no longer do. The Northeast Shoot is in the hands of Ernie Hauseman and could go either way. I applaud Dr. Truitt for taking it upon himself to build such great guns and every time I see him, I ask to inspect his work. I am no newcomer to NSCA competition, have a very low membership card number and competed for several years from the beginning. There are small gauge events at almost every shoot and a side by side event at every important shoot. The big guns have every opportunity to be used at these events. I would hate to be deprived of the privilege of seeing John Truitt in action with his great guns, but the rules may catch up with him, as they did with me when I won the .410 at the Southern.

Bill,

And I am going to stand by my thoughts that I am not violating any rules or the spirit of the shoot.
They are posted and clear and I am in no way breaking them.

I have nothing to hide but also no reason to justify my decisions in guns to you or anyone else for that mater.

You Sir have no right to point fingers at me.

I don't think takeing a 12 ga framed gun and fitting 34 inch 410 barrels to it makes it a 410 or a 20, 28 ect.

I do like 20 ga's on #1 frames.

the 28 ga gun will be on a O frame

the 410 on a OO frame

They just happen to be planned to have 34" barrels

but I am in no way putting multi barrel sets together on a 12 ga frame (that would be quit the endeavor)

Each will be its own gun.

Rich, (not taking your comment personal, please don't take mine as such)

But I disagree. If Parker were open today. They would build what the customer asks for. Obviously in the past they did some very interesting things. Point in case a 12 ga on a #6 frame. Is that not a 12 ga gun?
I really wish they still were open. It would be a lot easier to get what I want. Instead I am confined to current available materials/ methods/ gun smiths/ and the like. I think you would understand since you seem to be having some custom guns built for yourself. I have really enjoyed all of my project guns. It is very rewarding having something come together and function that you envisioned.

I respect your opinion and all of the others. But what I don't appreciate is anyone making a comment that I am in some way violating anything, cheating, or trying to do something to run away shooters participants/ etc. That is crossing the line with me. Period.

John, they sound really nice. I truly love my 20ga, 1frame w/32" barrels and of course the 16ga. you so kindly sold me in the same configuration. Man, a 28ga. w/34" tubes would be the bomb! Keep us posted on their progress and post some pics if you can.

Thanks Daryl,

You and I have discussed our like for long barreled guns many times.

Word has it that Parker made a matched pair of 34" 410s for some brothers out west ( I think Washington State).
I think they were called the roman candles or something like that.

Well I guess the search goes on for those long smallbores. Have to hit the lottery for those .410's.

John I never said you have violated any rule. You may "build" anything you like. My opinion is that vintage shoots should be with vintage guns as they left the factory. You asked for opinions and thats mine.

The only "custom" Parker I have ever done is Gunner's Gun and the custom work only pertains to engraveing and stock work. It is still a VH 20 on an 0 frame with Parker barrels.

Rich,

I did not mean to imply you did. That was a blanket statement not directed at you.

And that's fair and I respect your opinion.

Around the year 1900 weren't pigeon and trap guns limited to 8 lbs?

Mark

I believe you are correct. I don't know why they limited it. Maybe someone like Dave Noreen or someone else could give us info on why.

I believe the heavier guns gave an advantage to those who could shoot them well.

I think it had more to do with shot loads/ dram equiv/ etc.
Just like they had eliminated the 10 bore from box bird shoots.
Not eliminating weight for handling characteristics.

Banned the 10 bore? How dare they! :rotf:

John, I hope you take back the statement you made about "pointing fingers at you". I am not doing that, I won't do that, and I haven't done that. I have made it clear that I respect your gun building and I am just clearing the air. Everyone knows about your guns and I don't need to point fingers. Please let me know that you really didn't mean what you said.

By the way, you don't have to go to Dave Noreen to learn that the eleven pound limit in the eighties was for handling characteristics, not shot load or drams of powder. The later eight pound limit was for the same reason. Nothing has changed in a hundred and twenty years. The heavy gun has the advantage on easy birds. The sactioning organizations stepped in to put an end to unfair advantages from rich guys and gun companies. End of story.

My eleven pound C Grade hammer gun, made for a Parker company shooter, was made to the exact specifications of the B Grade made for Fred Kimble, another company shooter. Several guns were made by Parker Brothers for other company shooters to the exact same specifications. They were uncommon guns, made to these specifications because they were better pigeon guns than the pigeon guns used by other competitors. No statement is made about this practice except that heavy guns are an advantage.

No Murphy,

I meant what I said just as you meant what you said.

IMO you made your point clear. I am making mine clear.

I am done with this. Do what you feel you must.

Yes Mark and I believe that's why we see so many Parkers in 12 gauge with weights between 7 lb., 12 oz. and 7 lb., 15 oz. Very few were ordered to weigh 8 lb. even so as not to be disqualified by a judge with a 'not perfectly accurate' scale.

Gentlemen,

I don't know if my opinion will matter, or change anyone's opinion on the topic, regarding originality or suitability of guns shot in competition. It is just my opinion.

As to originality of specific Parker Guns: The proliferation of custom guns and subsequent modifications to originally manufactured guns, either by Parker or others, is a subject that can be debated to the end of time. I can see that Parker would make a gun to an individuals specification that could amount to just about any practicable combination of frame size, gauge, bore, barrel length, and weight. The specification of an individual may or may not be noted in surviving documention.

As to the configuration of restored Parker Guns: There are restored Parker guns out there that are obviously not done in the manner that would be expected of the factory. I personally own a gun that was in really bad shape and obviously modified by a trap shooter to include porting of the barrels. When I had this gun restored Turnbull I was told that this heinous modification could not be repaired. Who is to say that if Parker had received a request for this type of work on a custom gun wether they would have refused? I personally don't see this as a benefit to the shooter but others might disagree. As I stated up front, this just my opinion.

I would personally not like to be tasked with determing the originality of a Parker Gun, or any other gun, as suitable for competing in any particular shooting venue and I would not like to see the requirement of having letter documentation as a prerequisite to using any particular gun in competition.