Bill, with regards to the gun you said should not have been restored, can you tell us why you feel that way? What attributes did the gun have warranting no restoration? Thx, Ray

My 2 cents is when you decide to restore a gun and after you waited a year or more to get it back -- is to shoot the snot out of it. A lot of times the gun comes back and it's "too pretty" to take to the field and it gets put away un-used in the safe and is treated as eye candy...

I shoot all my restored guns and I have the normal wear from handling and marks in the stock from me using them to pass down to the next.

Well said Frank....and I second that !!

ddp

If your not going to use it then why restore it is my feelings. That use puts back some well earned patina and takes the edge off the "newness".

Example of a 'Restoration' gone Horribly wrong
 

Poor woman went in for a 'Butt Lift'.

Edger if I were you I would get out of town and go hunting.

Thanks Edgar, I can't stop laughing every time I bring it back on my screen. It's like a horrible accident on the highway, you just have to look.

Edgar you can't buy RST shells at Wallmart:nono: so you can stop going there.

So many good points here, but none more so than evaluating each individual gun on it's own merits. A good rule of thumb might be restore if it adds value (but dont expect the increased value to be equal to the cost of the restoration and gun itself). Do not restore a gun if it will decrease the value.

I don't see much harm in bringing a tired and or broken G, P, V or even Trojan back to life and use.

I find the process of bringing back a tired gun that I enjoy shooting is fun, I am like a kid at Christmas waiting for a set of barrels to come back from refinishing or a stock rechecked or screws fixed. There is satisfaction for me in the process and enjoyment to follow. Not every dollar spent on a good shotgun I like has to bring a $ plus back to have fun, not for me anyway.

I'm right there with you Pete. I just sent two sets of barrels to Dale Edmonds for refinishing. One set is for a grade 2 16ga hammergun and when i get these back they will determine if I have the stock refinished as well, the other set are 32 inchers and that gun also a grade 2 but hammerless 16 O frame has had some TLC already.

Answering Ray's question about the gun I probably shouldn't have had refinished. When I was 14 years old, in 1960, I bought a really nice little VH 28 gauge from another 14 year old in my gun club. I paid him the price of a new Savage 99 that he wanted, $130 if I recall correctly. The gun had a pretty perfect stock with checkering filled with varnish, perfect buttplate, very high condition barrel blue, no colors and good screws. In the summer of 1967, I met a more than sweet young thing at Ocean City, New Jersey. She lived in Jenkintown, so in the fall I took the Parker to Paul Jaeger's shop to have the checkering redone and visit Jannie Broughton. At that point, the gun was just short of pristine. However, I guess it was my Dad who wanted to take a trip to Del Grego's to get some work done on a 16 gauge GHE. This was in 1972 and somehow we decided for him to take the 28 gauge along. This is the trip where Dad took the pictures of Larry and Babe working in the shop, pictures that appeared in Kevin McCormack's 1997 DGJ articles on the Del Gregos. My 28 came back from Del Grego with new colors and new rust blue. It is a beautiful gun, with more than 40 years of clay targets and bird hunting on the new finish, finish it probably didn't need. In three years, I will have owned that gun for 56 years, the same number of years it was owned by its previous caretakers. I'm running out of time to wear those Remington colors off.

Here is an auction--not mine--far from over as I type this, of a reasonably well restored Parker VH 12 gauge. The current price, being about $1100, is more than it would sell for (at least on GB) if it were all original and down in the 20 or 30% range, which is probably where it was when restored. And the auction isn't over. I am watching this auction to further understand how the market responds to properly (even if not perfectly) restored Parkers, which was the original point of this thread. Clearly, a proper restoration does increase market value if the gun started at 30% or less condition, and very likely dramatically so if it was previously botched, such as a hot blued frame "refinish".

The question in my mind is whether the increase in market value will exceed the cost of the properly performed restoration? In most cases, and especially with lower grade guns, that does not appear to be the case, which is likely why we see so few properly restored field grade guns on the market. Its like counterfeiting a one dollar bill.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=363163311

Restoring a gun to make a profit is a losing game, just like restoring old houses, old cars or almost anything else. I am restoring a DH 10 gauge that was beat to hell. Fortunately, I did not pay much for it, but I will still have a lot more in it than it is worth. I am doing it for the satisfaction of bringing an old gun back to life.

THATS exactly why a restorastion should be done, to give a fitting speciman another 100 years of field time.

If it weren't for the need for restocking, I would have my blued 28 gauge redone. It is a great gun, but no one appreciates the fine gloss blue on the receiver. It has a rare N.F. Strebe Gun Works recoil pad, so I'm guessing that my old friend Norman Strebe probably blued the gun as well as restocking it. Norman's shop is about three good baseball throws from William Wagner's gun store where the gun was originally sold in 1900. As I recall, we determined that this gun was the seventh 28 gauge sold by Parker Brothers. I would have to reread the PP article to be sure.

Mills, I restored one of those old Savannah homes on Harris St and I think (hope) I'm ahead of the game. Just have to buy the rascals right!!!

For what it is worth, we restore far more high grade guns than field grade guns. However we have never lost out on a Restoration of a good basic field gun. We evaluate what the function and cosmetics would cost in a high condition gun. Each gun needs to be evaluated on an individual basis. A properly restored P grade will bring a 60 to 70 percent value. Assume that a 70% C grade in original condition will yield a very high price at auction. Take a C in less than 30% and Restore it to 90% it will yield At least a 70% sale value, far higher than the cost of Restoration.
The most significant fact is that a Restoration that is done in the same fashion as the original manufacturer is not a refinish, rather a proper preservation of the guns original integrity.

Brad

Bravo Brad

well said Brad

Mr. Bachelder is most respected in his field, and I may be too strict in my limits of vocabulary here... but "preservation" is the retention of original finish. Restoration is its recreation... as far as an independent workman can match it.

Thus, "restoration" is, by clarity of language, still restoration.

Nonetheless, Mr. Bachelder's wise assessment of the relative values of the work is well stated. And I have the greatest admiration for his craftsmanship, I might add!

This should, in no way, be interpreted as a criticism of his work, his fine character, or his opinions.

As I am a young collector, compared to most of the experts in this forum. People will pay whatever the price if they want the gun bad enough, so called original, or restored. There are many qualified Parker gunsmiths in our member base. It's my opinion that none of them would perform work to intentionally devalue a prized Parker.

On a side note:
I have several Parkers that were sent back (PGCA letter noted), things changed, refinished, replaced ect. Why?? Obviously the original caretakers wanted the guns to fit their use and lifestyle. Does this mean we should not enjoy them? Clean 100 years of crud off the stocks to see the beautiful wood below? Refinish the Damascus to see the original pattern that once was..??

I think we would all love to have an un-touched, all original never fired Parker. The reality of this idea is only for a limited number of collectors. I shoot my Parkers all of the time, care for them and most of all admire them. A Trojan can make me smile as much as an A grade, it's all about what you love and appreciate.

I'll now step off my soapbox.....

[QUOTE=Paul Stafford]I think we would all love to have an un-touched, all original never fired Parker. QUOTE]

Paul I'll pass on one of those. I have had NIB Pre 64 Winchester M70's, a couple of Repo's and a Colt Diamondback 22 which I still have. The NIB doesn't interest me in the least as a big dollar is paid and it can't be used. The gun is destined to be a closet queen forever and I like to use my guns. I have a couple with lots of original case color and if I wear some off using the gun it will be the next caretaker's delima.

When viewing the hunting photos posted, I've noticed that many of the members here do their hunting with restored Parkers. That makes a lot of sense to me. Parkers in high original condition are finite, rare and expensive. Taking a gun into the wet brush for a full day of hard hunting will cost you some of that finish every time.

The options are to hunt with a grey gun with little to no original finish remaining, or to hunt with a restored gun. Personally, I like to do both depending on the mood I'm in and the hunting company I will be keeping that day. So at least for me, there is room in my safe for both original Parkers with little finish remaining, and restored Parkers that look almost new.

[QUOTE=Rich Anderson;115084]
What I meant is I would enjoy it, unfired or not. Leaving a gun in a closet for a hundred years, is not how the Parker family intended us to enjoy their fine craftsmenship. I know that this thinking is "against the grain". I hope to have 40+ more years of collecting but Life is short! Do you want to have memories of taking your prized Parker out and enjoying it, or just a memory of putting it in a closet or a safe....

I choose to use and enjoy them...

Just an opinion...

Kensal
To clarify my use of the word "preservation", wood and metal finishes are used to preserve structural integrity in their respective applications. With time and use these finishes degrade, exposing the wood and metal to accelerated degrading. Restoration halts the accelerated degrading process there by preserving the structural integrity of both the wood and metal.

Brad

Here is an issue I am now dealing with. Over the last 40 years I have collected Parkers, L C Smiths, Lefevers, Ithicas..... At this point in my life when I do get to go out to hunt and shoot I always end up taking the ole favorite. Some of those collected firearms are good examples of safe "queens". They have not seen the light of day in 30 years. Now my problem is compounded by what should ultimately happen to them. Wife and daughters have no interest or any idea what to do with them in my absence. Over the last 2 years I have sold many of them and now have had a change in mind set. Why do I keep them stored away in a dark gun safe. Let someone else enjoy them. Still too hard to part with some of them. Not because of any value, but because what they represent in our heritage and history.

Well said...

You know, Paul made a poimt I did not think of earlier. Many guns were sent back to Prker to effectively be "restored" completely or partially. No one in the collector community seems to have any problem with that. For example, early gunswere routinely returnedor the installation of ejectors. They required new stock, and heck, while they were there some were rebrowned. One caims that restoration devalued the gun, do they? Or am I missing something.

Question: If a parker was sent back to the factory to be restored and is now in 50% condition, is it worth less than a gun that was not sent back and is in 50% condition? If not, how could properly restroing it now have an adverse affect on its value?

If it is documented Parker or Remington work then it is considered 'original' and not done by some "unknown" whose methods and thoroughness cannot be supported. Untold numbers of Parkers have been very nicely cosmetically refinished but we so often see checkering patterns that are not true to original patterns, or LPI, or peaked diamonds as opposed to flat topped diamonds (according to the grade) as well as poorly done color case hardening and Damascus finish. We've also seen a good number of Parkers that, once again, have been cosmetically refinished nicely - even paying close attention to keeping as close to original regarding the features mentioned above.... but have paid no attention to mechanical issues. Certain guns come to mind and have issues with the following after being refinished.... loose at the hinge even to the point of being off face.... safety issues - doesn't always work (which to me means it has no safety).... trigger or sear problems - the gun doubles or has a "hair trigger".... cocking problems, opening or closing problems, ejector problems, etc., etc.

There are a few exceptionally skilled craftsmen out there who will restore your Parker in each and every respect to exactly how Parker would have done it and their prices reflect that attention to detail.... and there are other people who will refinish your Parker very handsomely.... and there are some in between.... 'nuff said.

Dean, If a gun built in 1890 was sent to Rem in 1940, then it would have not been restored to 1890 specs, right? Even so, it would still be considered "original"? I don't have much experience here but I remember passing in on 1890s AH that had been recolored and restocked by Rem, and I thought it looked nothing like the original so I passed. Did not have the same value to me. But I bet that had Brad restored it, it would have suited me just fine and been worth the price. It could be that guns restored today have as much or more value than guns restored by Rem, at least to me.

I think it is kinda interesting that the hobby has no problem with gun gun potentially restored somewhat improperly by Rem, but does have a problem, at least to some, if properly restored today. The market probably balances this all out when it comes to monetary value as opposed to personal thoughts about whether a gun should ever be restored.

Harry I face the same delima..no kids to pass them down to and a wife who wouldn't know what to do. I could (and have considered this) narrow this down to a couple of deer rifles, a 16ga, Gunner's Gun and the VHE 28 skeet and sell the rest. I could use the money to go hunting somewhere instead of leaving it behind. I have one more year to work and have picked out the PArker that I'll sell upon retirement to feather the financial nest. I have always thought of the guns as a subsidy I just hope I'll have the fortitude to see it through.

C.O.B., I think as our generation ages the collecting world will see some nice pieces come available. Current generation does not have the same affection for old firearms as we do.

The younger generation wants black guns and synthetic stocks. These guns weather Parker, Winchester, LC Smith, rifle or shotgun are a finite resource BUT as people who appreciate these fine old guns we are a finite resource as well. this comes into my mind set of thinning down the numbers while I'm able and there are still enthusiasts to enjoy them.

Poorly done Parker
 

Here's an example of a gun that was made valueless by someone who had no idea what Parkers are supposed to look like. I guess it's pretty obvious I have no connection with this auction.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=364371021

Sad is'nt it Edgar?

"Magnificently Redone" "Professionally Refurbished by a highly skilled professional. Beautiful High Gloss Bluing, and Highly Polished Receiver "

Clearly, the guy has no appreciation for what a Parker is.
Read the whole description; it's pathetic.

Harry, sadly I have to agree, and this doesn't bode well for the market values.

I would hope not:nono: It's criminal what someone has done to this.

You guys must be crazy to turn your noses up at a beavertail forend and a straight grip.

I am surprised there are any bidders at all. That gun is totally ruined by some knee jerk wanna be gunsmith who has no idea of what a quality gun is. He should be shot and then shot again.

Dennis