I hear ya Russ. Time is definitley a problem. I did the "Roebuck" method with Benny. Being a amatuer trainer I decided to go that route. Like you were saying, you can do more damage than good if you do not know what you are doing with force training. You need a professional to do that. With the Roebuck method I got great results. I am sure it also depends on the dog and his willingness.