Grandfather's Parker. Any info/help would be appreciated. Photos!

[DaneRAtkinson]

Hi everyone,

One of my grandfathers passed away last year and I received his Parker SXS. It has sat in a gun cabinet until recently when I purchased a CZ Ringneck SXS to get into shooting a SXS for skeet, 5 stand, pheasants and grouse and became more interested in the Parker. I don't know much about the gun or its value but I have seen similar ones going for 5,000 at auctions. I do not plan on selling it and would like to shoot it eventually. Most of the screws are ruined, and also the buttpad screws are missing. I have found replacement screws online and was wondering what anyone thinks about having the stock refinished, rebrown the barrels, etc... and if it is worth it. Here is some info on it:

Serial # 111805
Year = 1902
Frame Size = 2 (12 Gauge)
Grade = DH Grade 3? (It has a D and a 3 above the D on the water table.)
* I also read that this is the Lowest Grade of Custom
It is Hammerless double trigger with Damascus barrels

This gun has been worked on or at least tampered with and by looking at it I would give it a C or poor condition. But maybe you guys can give me your opinion. The safety is very stiff to push forward and it does shoot. (did not shoot any rounds through it, just pulled triggers) Here are the pictures. Thanks!

[John Campbell]

Looks like a darn nice D grade trap gun to me. And WELL worth preserving! NOT "restoring." The screws aren't too bad. They can be saved. The wood is fine and needs very little. A new Silver's pad would be right. The shield on the toe line is fascinating. Is it engraved? There could be heritage there.
If the barrels are in good shape, and they appear to be, this gun can still be shot with loads in the 1100 fps range or less.
You have a treasure here. And doubly so because it is a family treasure!
The key is to clean her up. Not "tart her up". Start with a professional strip-and-clean.

Best, Kensal

[George M. Purtill]

That is a great gun. Get a letter on it. do nothing except to replace the pad.
The safety may ease up after some use. if not, have it professionally cleaned.
PROFESSIONALLY cleaned.

[DaneRAtkinson]

A new Silver's pad would be right. The shield on the toe line is fascinating. Is it engraved? There could be heritage there., Kensal

Do you know where and if so, what exact "Silver's pad" I need? The shield is not engraved.

[DaneRAtkinson]

That is a great gun. Get a letter on it. do nothing except to replace the pad.
The safety may ease up after some use. if not, have it professionally cleaned.
PROFESSIONALLY cleaned.

George,

What will a letter do for me? Thanks.

[George M. Purtill]

It would give you original production information as well as indicators what is original and not.
It may give you provenance, etc. It is very valuable.

[Frank Cronin]

Nice gun. Leave as is.... A good gunsmith can repair those buggered screws. Do I see a Monte Carlo stock on this D grade?

[John Campbell]

Dane:
A good 'smith can put a new Silver's pad on it. They are available from Galazan or Silver's in the UK. Don't attempt it yourself. And please don't send that gun to the local "gunsmith." It rates DelGrego, Bachelder, G&H, etc. My choice would be DelGrego. No slight to the others.

[Richard Flanders]

What's that hole along the rib in one picture? Does that just go through between the barrel and rib? It almost looks like a hole in the barrel.

[DaneRAtkinson]

What's that hole along the rib in one picture? Does that just go through between the barrel and rib? It almost looks like a hole in the barrel.

It is just a ding/dent like it had been dropped or slid and hit a sharp corner of something.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Many people have told me the stock is not original, do you think the letter would tell me when/if it was replaced?

[Mark Ouellette]

A Parker research letter will note if the gun was ordered with a Monte Carlo or high comb.

If a repair record exists for a stock replacement it will note that also. A stock replaced at Parker Brothers counts as original to the gun to collectors.

[DaneRAtkinson]

A Parker research letter will note if the gun was ordered with a Monte Carlo or high comb.

If a repair record exists for a stock replacement it will note that also. A stock replaced at Parker Brothers counts as original to the gun to collectors.

Did Parker make Monte Carlo stocks? Not that I would take the gun apart but would there be markings on it?

[John Campbell]

Yes. Such stocks were made. The head of this stock looks very original to me. the only odd thing is that the stock oval looks a bit larger than usual... but it could just be the photos/lensing.
A letter on this gun would be WELL worth the investment.

[Brian Dudley]

This is a very nice and interesting DH that you have here. Yes it has a few things that need addressing like screws and the pad.
The barrel finish is very nice. Looks like it still has a lot of good black / white contrast remaining. There are not a lot of good photos of the wood, so it is hard to say what it could benefit from in that arena, if anything. Maybe just some finish added and checkering cleaned up. It all depends on how nice you want it.

The pad should be replaced for sure.
The stock very well could be original. It certainly has age to it. If there are factory records on the gun, it would surely say if it was ordered with a Monte Carlo comb. If it was, then excellent! It makes a nice gun even nicer. Parker guns could be special ordered with this feature. You should order a letter for sure if there are records. That way the originality of the stock cannot be questioned.

By the way, the stock oval looks 100% correct to me. And it is retained with 6 nails as it should be.

The factory stamped serial number and the grade letter "3" will be stamped under the guard bow.

[DaneRAtkinson]

This is a very nice and interesting DH that you have here. Yes it has a few things that need addressing like screws and the pad.
The barrel finish is very nice. Looks like it still has a lot of good black / white contrast remaining. There are not a lot of good photos of the wood, so it is hard to say what it could benefit from in that arena, if anything. Maybe just some finish added and checkering cleaned up. It all depends on how nice you want it.

The pad should be replaced for sure.
The stock very well could be original. It certainly has age to it. If there are factory records on the gun, it would surely say if it was ordered with a Monte Carlo comb. If it was, then excellent! It makes a nice gun even nicer. Parker guns could be special ordered with this feature. You should order a letter for sure if there are records. That way the originality of the stock cannot be questioned.

By the way, the stock oval looks 100% correct to me. And it is retained with 6 nails as it should be.

The factory stamped serial number and the grade letter "3" will be stamped under the guard bow.

Brian, thanks for all the info. I will definatly get a letter. The gun does have the D3 on the water table. Does that mean it came with a Monte Carlo?

[Bill Murphy]

No, the D and 3 are the letter and number grade. The Monte Carlo stock looks very original and is a very rare option, indicating it was probably ordered by a competition shooter. The letter may identify that shooter. I will help you figure out who he was and what his claim to fame is. Don't throw the old pad away. A collector may want to have it to bring the gun back to original condition. Allow no modification to the butt that will prevent the old pad from fitting back on. Let us know about your letter.

[DaneRAtkinson]

No, the D and 3 are the letter and number grade. The Monte Carlo stock looks very original and is a very rare option, indicating it was probably ordered by a competition shooter. The letter may identify that shooter. I will help you figure out who he was and what his claim to fame is. Don't throw the old pad away. A collector may want to have it to bring the gun back to original condition. Allow no modification to the butt that will prevent the old pad from fitting back on. Let us know about your letter.

The trigger guard has some initials on it...

[Brian Dudley]

"Monte Carlo" is the name that is given to this type of comb that is relatively flat in drop and then slopes down sharply just before the buttplate or pad.
It is commonly used by trap shooters where a higher comb is wanted, but a lower mounting point on the shoulder is desired. If these type of stocks did not have a Monte Carlo comb, they would end up looking like boat paddles.

[Dean Romig]

No, the D and 3 are the letter and number grade. The Monte Carlo stock looks very original and is a very rare option, indicating it was probably ordered by a competition shooter. The letter may identify that shooter. I will help you figure out who he was and what his claim to fame is. Don't throw the old pad away. A collector may want to have it to bring the gun back to original condition. Allow no modification to the butt that will prevent the old pad from fitting back on. Let us know about your letter.


The stock appears absolutely original and please heed Bill's advice.

[edgarspencer]

Don't pay much attention to what you see 'similar' D grades selling for. The devil is in the details, and it would appear there may be a lot of details in your gun not apparent to the eye. Condition may trump rarity, but Provenance often trumps condition.

[Mark Ouellette]

This photo is of a documented Parker factory Monte Carlo comb on a BHE.

[John Campbell]

It's just speculation, but my thinking is that this gun was made up as a "presentation/prize" type of gun and ordered by some organisation. Possibly for the winner of some prestigious shoot. That's why it would be so much fun to trace its heritage.
One reason I say this is the over-large stock oval. While probably done at Parker, it's about twice the size of a standard D oval. Just right for some dedication to be engraved to the winner of a tourney.

[Brian Dudley]

The size of a typical DH or CH stock oval is about 1" in height.

[Dean Romig]

The size of a typical DH or CH stock oval is about 1" in height.


...which is just about the size of the one in question when compared to the size of the grip cap in that picture.

[edgarspencer]

...which is just about the size of the one in question when compared to the size of the grip cap in that picture.

What are you, a mind reader? I was thinking the same thing, but trying to find a program I had that overlays a grid square that has user assignable cell dimensions. I am thinking that my 12 and 16 are pretty different dimensions. When I get my 12 back, I'll measure them.

[Brian Dudley]

I have measured 2 DH ovals that I have here in the shop and that is where I got my measurements from. Actually it is about 1-1/16" tall.

[wayne goerres]

The oval on my dh looks like the one on this thread . Brian has it right now. He may be able to compare them. I thought it was some kind of aftermarket oval.

[Brian Dudley]

The oval on your gun was one of the ones I measured Wayne. The oval was used on DH guns and CH guns as compared to the shield on lower grades. The oval was silver on DH guns and gold on CH guns.

[wayne goerres]

I thought it was something someone just tacked on there. Its kind of ugley but there are enitials on it. would those have been engraved by parker.

[Brian Dudley]

They could have been engraved by Parker if the customer specified it on the order. Or it could have been engraved after the fact.

[Dean Romig]

The oval was silver on DH guns and gold on CH guns.



Sorry Brian - it was Grade 5 (B) and above that had the gold oval or grip cap.

[DaneRAtkinson]

The oval on your gun was one of the ones I measured Wayne. The oval was used on DH guns and CH guns as compared to the shield on lower grades. The oval was silver on DH guns and gold on CH guns.

The gun shown on the 1st page is a D grade. I might have to look at it again but it looks gold/bronze to me. Maybe just a weathered silver?

[Eric Eis]

The gun shown on the 1st page is a D grade. I might have to look at it again but it looks gold/bronze to me. Maybe just a weathered silver?

Alot of the guns have a coat of varnish that yellows over time to give that gold/bronze color but they were silver.

[George M. Purtill]

Eric- I absolutely agree.

[DaneRAtkinson]

I can't wait to get a letter!

[edgarspencer]

IF you have a proper set of gun smith's screwdrivers, you might try removing the two front screws on your trigger plate and switching them. They have to go back into the hole from which they came in order to be properly aligned. IF you don't have the correct screwdrivers, get a gunsmith to do it for you so you don't bugger them up.

[DaneRAtkinson]

IF you have a proper set of gun smith's screwdrivers, you might try removing the two front screws on your trigger plate and switching them. They have to go back into the hole from which they came in order to be properly aligned. IF you don't have the correct screwdrivers, get a gunsmith to do it for you so you don't bugger them up.

Thanks for the info. One of the screws isnt sitting flush with the plate and maybe that is why.

[Brian Dudley]

Sorry Brian - it was Grade 5 (B) and above that had the gold oval or grip cap.

I stand corrected. I double checked TPS and it does state C grades as having silver ovals, just like D grades. It is hard to remember all of the info that is in there. I might have been confused after recently seeing the JP Hayes presentation CHE, which has a gold grip cap on it.

[Jack Selman]

Dane:
A good 'smith can put a new Silver's pad on it. They are available from Galazan or Silver's in the UK. Don't attempt it yourself. And please don't send that gun to the local "gunsmith." It rates DelGrego, Bachelder, G&H, etc. My choice would be DelGrego. No slight to the others.


You might add Mark Beasland to that list. He has done fine work for me. Nice
heirloom gun!

[Dean Romig]

I thought it was something someone just tacked on there. Its kind of ugley but there are enitials on it. would those have been engraved by parker.


I have enlarged the picture of the oval as big as I could and I don't see any evidence of engraving on it.... What are you seeing??

[DaneRAtkinson]

I have enlarged the picture of the oval as big as I could and I don't see any evidence of engraving on it.... What are you seeing??

I cant remember if the pictures I posted show it, but the trigger guard has initials engraved on it.

[Dean Romig]

Tha trigger guard tang should only have "No 111805" engraved on it. If the trigger guard bow has initials engraved on it please show us a picture of that.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Tha trigger guard tang should only have "No 111805" engraved on it. If the trigger guard bow has initials engraved on it please show us a picture of that.

Will do when I get home friday...

[Paul Plager]

Dane, you have a great gun there. Please join the PGCA, the letter everyone is talking about is $40.00 as a member vs. $100.00 for non menbers. The benifits are great, the knowledge is amazing as you have been witness to on this thread.
There are a bunch of great people here with lots to teach us.
Enjoy the great gun.

[wayne goerres]

If you join you get to see what is in the for sale section. WARNING THIS SITE IS ADDICTIVE.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Tha trigger guard tang should only have "No 111805" engraved on it. If the trigger guard bow has initials engraved on it please show us a picture of that.

Here are the I initials.

[Dean Romig]

Very unusual! Thank you for posting that picture. Generally the initials would have been engraved on the oval shield in the stock but that one is a bit "off the charts".

It would be interesting to see if a research letter would mention those initials or the name of the original owner.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Letter request sent, I will let you guys know what info I get back.

[Dean Romig]

Dane, I hope you have joined the PGCA for only $40. That way the letter will only cost you an additional $40.... otherwise, non-members pay $100 for a research letter...

Do the math and save $20.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Dane, I hope you have joined the PGCA for only $40. That way the letter will only cost you an additional $40.... otherwise, non-members pay $100 for a research letter...

Do the math and save $20.

Yes, in my envelope I included a form for membership + check and form for research letter + check. It only makes sense!

[allen newell]

IHS= In Hoc Signum (By this Sign?) latin interpretation might be off somewhat, but what the heck.

Was your grandfather a religious man?

[DaneRAtkinson]

IHS= In Hoc Signum (By this Sign?) latin interpretation might be off somewhat, but what the heck.

Was your grandfather a religious man?

J.H.S.

[DaneRAtkinson]

Research Letter --->http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10141

[DaneRAtkinson]

Just too some better pictures. Album is here http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=435

[Daniel G Rainey]

My DH was made in 1902 number 113506. the engraving had to be done by the same man. Same pattern on the barrels. The stock could have come the same tree. Mind is not a trap gun., but is fun to shoot. Hope to bust some doves with it in Sept. Enjoy your DH it was made to shoot. Dan

[wayne goerres]

WOW You hit the jackpot with that letter. Matches the gun exactly.

[allen newell]

My vote would be Batchelder's. I had my grandfather's 16 vh restocked by DelGregos some years back and had to send the gun back several times, bedding material oozed out of the frame, base plate screws had to be replaced and timed properly etc, etc. Lawrence was fine to deal with and the final product was satisfactory but I didn't expect to have to return the gun for corrective work. I've had Brad work on a number of guns and he and Lori are great to work with. I know others have had good experiences with DelGregos, only reflecting my experience. No piling on please.