Cliff Green Parker's for Sale

[Ed Blake]

I see Galazans has Mr. Green's 4-barrel two gun set for sale. I have a DGJ from 1991 with an ad from Chadicks offering them for $250,000. How much does Tony want for them now?

[George M. Purtill]

It's a new pricing system. It is POR. WTF?

[Bill Murphy]

Good luck getting them to reply to a request for a price by email. And I really wanted a shot at them this time.

[greg conomos]

Their presumption, probably, is that if you are serious about buying them you'll be willing to pay for a long distance phone call.

[George M. Purtill]

Their presumption, probably, is that if you are serious about buying them you'll be willing to pay for a long distance phone call.

maybe they are too embarrassed to post it.

[Bruce Day]

Tony Galazan and Lou Frutoso have come from nothing and built a major business making fine shotguns and buying and reselling classic maker guns. I doubt they are embarrassed about anything. They have also been significant supporters and friends of the PGCA. We recently spent time with Lou trying to explain that the unpleasant forum comments of a few are not representative of the PGCA as a whole and we thanked them for the past participation and hoped their goodwill would continue.

Like anything costly, why create a buzz about how much it costs. People know certain guns are expensive, and like fine cars, art, anything, if you have interest and are more than a tire kicker, a serious person will call. Call on a cell phone under a minutes plan if a person is concerned about the buck or two to call and talk to Lou.

Its a fine Parker, rare, highly unusual, and its one I can admire but leave to the wealthy, and maybe someday get to handle. In the meantime, I'll go back to my old beaters and kinda wish I had the means to get involved in something like those guns.

[David Holes]

I think its only logical not to post a price on this item. If they do sell, the buyer deserves the right to have that info, and he can do with it what he wants. He paid for that right. We just need a buyer to step forward. Dave

[Bill Murphy]

Just playing devil's advocate, here, but Herschel advertised the Green guns for $250,000 and no one has any idea how much was paid for them. Does Lou really have time to answer phone call from everyone who "wants to know"? I like Tony and Lou a lot, but they're men and don't need BD to defend them.

[George M. Purtill]

I think its only logical not to post a price on this item. If they do sell, the buyer deserves the right to have that info, and he can do with it what he wants. He paid for that right. We just need a buyer to step forward. Dave

So do you think Julia's should keep all the auction sales prices secret?

[allen newell]

They can if they wish to. It's their call and how they decide to do business. I personally like knowing the numbers as it helps to get a sense of the mkt.

[allen newell]

Who is Cliff Green anyway? Australian screen writer? US Basketball player?

[edgarspencer]

They can if they wish to. It's their call and how they decide to do business. .

Since you're in tight with them, explain how an auctioneer could keep anyone from knowing the hammer? Does he zap everyone on the floor with a Certified MIB memory zapper, and telepathically make everyone watching all the online bidding services go dumb?

[allen newell]

Edgar, I'm not in tight with them and I was referring to whether or not they choose to PUBLISH the hammer results. But maybe you're right - they may zap them on the floor! omg

[greg conomos]

$250K is a lot to pay for any gun with unfashionably short barrels.

Although Mr. Murphy at times struggles with expressing himself, he does bring up a good point - one that I ponder at length. It is the business model of American business, and for all I know all businesses everywhere:

Business Model:

1) Be in business
2) Create Website to keep up with the times
3) Add a 'Contact Us' icon, with room for potential customers to contact you via email
4) Ignore all emails sent to the 'Contact Us' mailbox

[allen newell]

Good wry humor Fishtail! Way to go! What would the world be without us cynics?

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, Mr. Murphy does not struggle with expressing himself, he just expresses himself a bit more often than prudent. Thanks for the diagnosis.

[Ray Masciarella]

Greg, you better watch what you say about Galazan company. Recently, a member sought references about the Galazan company and I shared my experience (similar to yours apparently) which was deemed unfavorable by one of the moderators. He deleted my post and sent me a PM to the effect that I should not state anything about the company that isn't favorable except he did give me permission to do it by PM. When I replied to the moderator's PM why PGCA felt it needed to delete an honest response to an honest inquiry, I was not favored with a reply.

There is a certain love affair with some here when it comes to the Galazan company. I understand Mr Galazan is a strong PGCA supporter. So the company gets a pass. (nothing here should be construed as a comment on any individual-we're talking about a company, right?). I'm sure you didn't intend by your comments to be negative, but be careful with any comments that could in any way to construed as negative or you will probably get a note from someone.

[allen newell]

So, who is Cliff Green anyway? I plead ignorance on this name.

[edgarspencer]

Ray, That sounds very much like censorship, and a violation of rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. That stuff happens in China, but, surely not here in America.
FWIW, I have no issues with that company, but find an individual associated with it to be without scruples, morals or conscience.

[Ray Masciarella]

Edgar, I was going to start a thread about it when it happened but I thought discretion was the better part of valor. It doesn't just sound like censorship-it is censorship!

My comment then was merely that my experience with the company was that customer service was poor and others shared that view. It was not a comment about any particular person. Similar comments had been made in prior posts but I was admonished for mine. I thought I was owed an explanation as to why honest comment was disfavored but wasn't entitled to the explanation apparently. Not sure why. After all, I'm a card carrying member of the PGCA!

I'm not sure why Mr Galazan needs to be defended. I don't know him but I'm sure he is a gentleman, who, as other have observed, can defend himself if need be. If "unpleasant" remarks have been made about his company, maybe he should look into it rather than merely ignoring them after others have apologized for their misguided brethren. IMHO and I have no bone to pick with anyone about it.

[allen newell]

Now retired from Corporate life (thank God), to keep me off the street and stay out of trouble, I work part time in a local (and well known - since 1947) sporting goods store as a senior fishing advisor. Believe me, we appreciate direct and hopen feedback from our customers and it has helped us to make many changes in the way we deliver certain services to them. Any business that ignores it's customer's experiences puts it's business at risk.

[Kevin McCormack]

Who is Cliff Green anyway? Australian screen writer? US Basketball player?

Allen, consult TPS for the full and complete story of the building of the Cliff Green guns - it is a fascinating tale!

[allen newell]

ok, thanks Kevin.rgds

[John Dunkle]

Greg, you better watch what you say about Galazan company. Recently, a member sought references about the Galazan company and I shared my experience (similar to yours apparently) which was deemed unfavorable by one of the moderators.....

It wasn't me - so frankly I could give a good Gawd Dammed about your complaint - or your "grievance".. As for folks who post about the their "right to post" - take it off-line with someone who really cares.

I wouldn't be that person.

"Y'all have a nice day".

John D.

[greg conomos]

Actually, my comment is directed at almost every business. In my experience, no matter how pleasant and "I want to buy your product' my email is, I very, very seldom get responses to emails I send companies from their website. That's all I was trying to say.

[Ray Masciarella]

Wow!

I can confirm that John D was not the moderator who deleted my post. I didn't want to post the name of the moderator here so to avoid appearing to attack any one person.Again, gentleman do exercise some discretion.
With regards to the rest of John D.'s post, well, like I said earlier, discretion is the better part of valor so I'll be brief. I pay my dues and have the right to post respectful, honest comments, and share my opinions with others, and if Big Brother doesn't like it or doesn't agree with my views, He can delete my post.

[Ray Masciarella]

Wow!

I can confirm that John D was not the moderator who deleted my post. I didn't want to post the name of the moderator here so to avoid appearing to attack any one person.Again, gentleman do exercise some discretion.
With regards to the rest of John D.'s post, well, like I said earlier, discretion is the better part of valor so I'll be brief. I pay my dues and have the right to post respectful, honest comments, and share my opinions with others, and if Big Brother doesn't like it or doesn't agree with my views, He can delete my post.

[John Dunkle]

Wow!

I can confirm that John D was not the moderator who deleted my post. I didn't want to post the name of the moderator...

There are only two of us here. That's all there is - that's all there are.

In fact - when YOU - or anyone - calls up the PGCA Website or forum - YOU are in my home office. These servers (all TWELVE OF THEM), these CIRCUITS (ALL THREE OF THEM) and these ROUTERS (all TWO OF THEM) -I pay for - a total monthly charge of well over $1280.00 - just for the connection, not including hardware, upgrades, software - etc..... In fact, I pay for all this crap - and have for years. I spend hundreds of dollars a month - out of my own pocket - to get "dissed" from folks like you?

Yep - the PGCA spends $387.12 for this connection - which is 1/5 my costs, electric, servers, upgrades, software, routers, etc... - Of which, of late - the PGCA consumes over 50%.

All those numbers don't include my time - which is pretty much 24/7 - 365 days a year - bringing new folks on board, or helping someone get registered, or doing Memberships with Mary, or taking personal FLAMES cause someone didn't register their real last/first name...

You want to complain about the site??? That's fine - in about 3-nanoseconds I can make you a Moderator - and then YOU can bitch and moan from my end of the telescope how "I can do it better"...

Want to give it a whirl??

Naww - I thought not....

And oh - like you, who said"...I pay my dues and have the right to post respectful, honest comments, and share my opinions with others, and if Big Brother doesn't like it or doesn't agree with my views, He can delete my post..."

Right back at'cha..... I pay my "dues" each and every day... If in doubt, read this post, once again, for the first time.....

You have a nice evening.

[Rich Anderson]

In another thread it was stated that the PGCA has $160,000+ in the bank. If so then they should pay for what they use

Back to the original question of the asking price of these guns (I Know John hates it when threads get highjacked :)) I heard from a good authority the asking price is $500,000.00

[allen newell]

That's it. I won't buy it.

[Ray Masciarella]

John, I guess you want to make it personal.

Your post points out many things that are probably unknown to many of us here. Sounds like the PGCA should provide more reimbursement to you. I'm willing to pay twice the dues so that you are not out pocket. It would still be a bargain to me.

I appreciate all you do for the forum members. I never suggested I could do it better than you. If censorship is in the best interest of the PGCA, then it will do so. I did not "diss" you in any way. I did not make it personal or even mention anyones name! I didn't even know there are only two of you.

If I were a moderator, I certainly would not throw myself in a rage and use foul language to respond to something I have not been accused of. After all, a moderator's role is to curb inappropriate, disrespectful comment and language.

Just because you think my "complaint" was unjustified, others do not. I'm not even sure it was a complaint as much as fair, honest comment.

Your job is one of those thankless tasks that many who enjoys this forum takes for granted. We never even think of it. We should. However, that doesn't give you a license to attack me. Heck, you are the moderator for heavens sake! If the moderator is going to attack members, this thing will turn into a free for all.

It sounds like to me the job is too much for you. You feel unappreciated and that is not good, or true. If you are burnt out, and I can see why you would be, maybe it is time to step down. No one would blame you for it and would honor your service.

To the members: I'm sorry for what this thread has been turned into. It was not my intention to cause trouble or attack any individual.

[Ed Blake]

Well, my thread certainly took a detour. The intent of my question was not to make a stir but to stimulate a bit of discussion regarding these fine guns. Kevin recommends TPS for the story on Mr. Green, and it is fascinating. I have wondered what I would have ordered from Parker had I had the chance in another time and place. Mr Greene did just that. I am also a fan of Tony Galazan. His company is the closest thing we have to the legacy American gun companies that made our favorite doubles.

[Mills Morrison]

I second Ed on that. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. I doubt anybody just surfing the internet is going to be the buyer of that gun, but it is fun to look. I am a Galazan's customer as well, but of stuff like $40 gun cleaning kits.

Julia and I were admiring some of Tony's guns for sale at Brays Island the other weekend. Very nice but we have school for the kids and the 20 gauge Parker Repro I am about to buy to pay for.

[John Dunkle]

John, I guess you want to make it personal.

Your post points out many things that are probably unknown to many of us here. Sounds like the PGCA should provide more reimbursement to you. I'm willing to pay twice the dues so that you are not out pocket. It would still be a bargain to me.

I appreciate all you do for the forum members. I never suggested I could do it better than you. If censorship is in the best interest of the PGCA, then it will do so. I did not "diss" you in any way. I did not make it personal or even mention anyones name! I didn't even know there are only two of you.

If I were a moderator, I certainly would not throw myself in a rage and use foul language to respond to something I have not been accused of. After all, a moderator's role is to curb inappropriate, disrespectful comment and language.

Just because you think my "complaint" was unjustified, others do not. I'm not even sure it was a complaint as much as fair, honest comment.

Your job is one of those thankless tasks that many who enjoys this forum takes for granted. We never even think of it. We should. However, that doesn't give you a license to attack me. Heck, you are the moderator for heavens sake! If the moderator is going to attack members, this thing will turn into a free for all.

It sounds like to me the job is too much for you. You feel unappreciated and that is not good, or true. If you are burnt out, and I can see why you would be, maybe it is time to step down. No one would blame you for it and would honor your service....

Ray - do you read what you write - before you post it? If you do - do you believe what you wrote?

Nope, me neither...

John,...
To the members: I'm sorry for what this thread has been turned into. It was not my intention to cause trouble or attack any individual. If you did read what you wrote, before or even after posting it - I'm guessing this comment would be superfluous.

As for "personal attacks" - read you post where you stated this site had "censored you". In fact, you had another user in your accord.? Personal attacks?

That was your post - certainly not mine....

Have a nice evening.

[allen newell]

Everybody is entitled to have a bad day. And everybody has a bad day or two. My wife had her 3rd round of chemo last Thursday and today is feeling absolutely horrible and sufferning more pain than the morphine she takes can cover. And I spent the day trying to clear a toilet that our 2 1/2 yr old grandaughter clogged when she flushed a 'batch' down the hatch the size of a cannon ball! Ye gads! Finally we got it cleared. So everyone has a bad day.

This is an excellent forum. We have terrific member contributers and good moderators to ride herd on us all. Strong honest and open views, opinions and we all have a bad day or two. Let's all go to bed, get some rest and get up tomorrow looking forward to a new set of threads to participate in and Jean and I will pray that our grand daughter doesn't leave us any more 'gifts' like the one she left this weekend!

[Ray Masciarella]

John, you are completely out of order. Actually out of control. I think you are suffering from some type of persecution complex.

First, I meant everything I said. You don't believe it because of your delusion. I especially meant it when I said you should think about stepping down as moderator.

Second, in my first post in this thread I stated that my post in an earlier thread about Galazan's customer service was deleted. This is a indisputable fact. Another member commented that it sounded like censorship and I agreed. Now you probably won't believe a dictionary either, but censorship is defined as suppressing speech that some authority deems objectionable. If deleting my post was not censorship, then what do you call it?

As it turns out, none of this has anything to do with you. You weren't the moderator who deleted my post. You didn't censor anything. But you have thrown yourself in an uncontrollable rant because you are an overworked
volunteer. I'm sorry you work 24/7/365 and PGCA doesn't reimburse you for all of your costs, but you sound ridiculous.

When I read what Allen just posted, I realize how ridiculous it is for me to even engage with you. So you win. Good night.

[Dean Romig]

Mr Masciarella,

It is not my wish to jump into this fray but it needs to be stated that you speak for nobody but yourself and it is the wish of a great many of us here that you take this vendetta off of our public forum and conduct your further discussions on this very personal topic offline either by PM or personal email or telephone call. Mr. Dunkle needs no defense from anyone but until someone has "walked a mile in his shoes" nobody has the right to attack his person.

John - certainly it is your perogative, as you have every right to do what you wish with this website - but I would humbly ask that you lock this thread.

My Best to You, Dean

[Eric Eis]

John or Jeff lock it, this is out of control.....Eric

[Rich Anderson]

IMHO Ray has conducted himself as a gentalman in addressing his views. He has not cursed anyone or layed blame to any one particular person. we are all intitled to our point of view. I believe he is owed an apology.

[Bill Murphy]

This post is for Allen who wants to know who Cliff Green was. Cliff was an active Maryland waterfowler and NSSA skeet shooter in the thirties and forties. He was not a high average shooter, but he shot on a high average squad and had some good days. It is hard to find individual shoot records for shooters who are not in the winner's circle, but I have a few of Cliff's. In 1947, Cliff went to the Nationals in Syracuse, ran a 231 in All-Bore, a 94 in 20 gauge, an 85 in 28 gauge, and another 85 in the 2 1/2" .410. The same year, he attended the Great Eastern Skeet Championships at Lordship and did some of his best shooting. 97 in 12 gauge, 91 in 20 gauge, and 91 in .410. There were no 28 gauge shells in early 1947, so that event was not shot. He was a member of the great Eastern Shore team of Joe George, Dr. Metcalf, Cliff Green, Julian Coleman, and Ed Calhoun. At 474, they came in three birds ahead of the Dick Shaghnessy squad. My home club squad, the National Capital Rebels, were first at 482. I have shot with three of the five members of the Champion squad and still see one of them a time or two every year. This shoot was 65 years ago.
Nash Buckingham was shooting with a Cliff Green the day he lost Bo Whoop, but I can only assume Cliff Green from Maryland was that person. Cliff and his shooting buddies were serious waterfowlers and guides and I'm sure they knew Nash from the days he was in Washington. Cliff had a few bucks and travelled a bit to hunt and shoot skeet.
I have a letter in my collection from Cliff and his squad written from the 1949 NSSA Nationals in Dallas to one of their squad members who could not attend. The letter was to inform the squad member that one of his cronies had run 100 in one of the events. I can't find the letter to identify the shooters. I hope this is enough information on Cliff Green.

[Bill Murphy]

Cliff also attended the NSSA Nationals in 1937, the year the gun was built, but I am not sure when the gun was delivered, so I didn't relay his scores for that shoot. I have had many pleasant days shooting with his squadmate Joe George's son, John George. I wrote Joe George's biography for the Maryland Skeet Hall of Fame, and he was inducted on the first application. Our PGCA friend Daryl Corona also knew John George, I believe. The George family goes back several generations of waterfowl guides and competitive shooters, at least the the turn of the 20th century.

[George M. Purtill]

Nice post Bill

[allen newell]

Thank you Bill. That was very nice.

[Bill Murphy]

Thank you for all the thanks for my post on Cliff Green. By the way, in 1947, the Great Eastern had 343 entrants. 2013 will be the first year since the forties that there will be no Great Eastern. Remington has dropped their sponsorship. This year, my club will have the 77th North South Skeet Shoot, the only NSSA shoot in the country that exceeds the Great Eastern for number of shoots held. Keep in mind that these .410 scores were shot with paper shells, low gun, and variable delay target release. In 1947, when Cliff Green shot a 91 with the little BHE .410, the winning score was 95. Charles Lyman Jr. shot a 93 in All-Bore, and Charles Lyman lll broke 90. I wonder if they were shooting Dr. Lyman's Parker Invincible #233,565? That would make two great guns being shot in the same skeet shoot. The shoot records for the 1947 Great Eastern were taken from a seventeen page hand typed synopsis of all events and all 343 competitors provided by the Remington Gun Club at Lordship.

[Rich Anderson]

I stopped shooting registered skeet years ago but recall when you left a popular shoot like The State Shoot or the Coast Guard you signed up for the following year or you didn't get in. Now you can walk in on the day of the shoot and get on a squad.

[Bill Murphy]

It really doesn't matter that some shooting sports are on a downturn, the history is still there. Glass ball shooting is not very active today, but the glass ball guns are still bringing the big buck and the history of the shooters is more interesting than it ever was. Who ever thought that NSSA skeet guns would be as interesting as the Dr. Lyman Invincible or the Cliff Green BHEs? My goal in collecting is to not let the ownership and provenance of the guns be separated from the guns themselves. Many of my Parkers are not acquired for condition, but for available provenance. I realize that the secondary sale of these guns may not be as easy as similar high condition guns without provenance, but they are more interesting to me while I own and shoot them.

[Rich Anderson]

It is nice to carry the history of the gun from one caretaker to another. It gives much more meaning to the gun than just when it was made and where it was originally shipped to.

What was going through Cliff Greens head as he stood on station 4 with the 410 shooting the third round and he was clean so far?

[charlie cleveland]

i agree a gun with a good storey behind it is worth more to me than ones that not got a storey....the old 8 ga silent auction gun has many storeys to be told yet...most people would not have this gun in their collection...its a rough looking old gun but to me with its provence so far its a gun for me to treasure...i trully like the green gun and i like the stories about it..and i trully appreciate the fellows who own and keep up with these fabulous guns...but its the stories about them i like most... charlie

[John Davis]

If it wasn't for a Parker shotgun originally owned by Fred Kimble, I wouldn't have spent four years of my life researching his and having the best and most rewarding time of my collecting career.

[Daryl Corona]

Great book by the way John. Thanks for all your research as it brought Mr. Kimble to life as I read it. Will my signed copy be worth more money some day?:bigbye:

[Mills Morrison]

As Daryl says, we are all the better for having read John's book

[Bill Murphy]

I have both versions. We're looking hard for the missing Kimble guns, especially the 33" toplever B Grade #4 frame. Mills will love that one when it is found.

[Dean Romig]

The best part of that four years John, is that you shared it with all of us... Thanks!

[Mike Franzen]

This is probably a dumb question but how does one go about getting a copy of your book John?

[John Davis]

Send me an e-mail with your address and I'll drop you a copy in the mail. They are $15.00 plus $3.50 s&h. I'm actually getting down to my last few copies. Thanks, John.

[Bill Murphy]

This is a fun thread, especially since today we have another thread active on the Cliff Green guns. Thanks to John Dunkle for not locking this thread. Most of the information I have on Cliff Green is in this thread and I hope other posters enjoy it the second time around, five years later. Maybe John Davis will tell us the latest in his search for Fred Kimble's B Grade #4 frame pigeon gun.

[Ed Blake]

John’s book is a fun read. He went on extended hunting trips that I certainly could not get away with. Great book.

[Bill Murphy]

The current discussion of Cliff Green and his Parkers is in the "Parkers for Sale" subforum, thread titled "DHE 1/2 Frame for Sale". There is another mention of Cliff Green and Nash Buckingham in the description for Bo Whoop when it was sold in a Julia auction. Oddly, I recently found a Super Fox that was ordered by Nash Buckingham before he ordered Bo Whoop. The Super I found was apparently the gun Nash took to Canada for an extended hunt, mentioned in one or more of his books. He must have sold it or gifted it while in Canada, because it was found in Canada. I would like to find more mention of Cliff Green in Nash's writings, but it would probably be in a magazine article, because I have read all of his books and didn't find anything.

[Dean Romig]

If it wasn't for a Parker shotgun originally owned by Fred Kimble, I wouldn't have spent four years of my life researching his and having the best and most rewarding time of my collecting career.


And John's research has produced, in his own words, "enough material to fill two more books." some of which we will begin to see in John's new series starting with the upcoming Spring 2018 Issue of Parker Pages titled "Parkers in Pulp" and will be included in as many future issues as John has energy enough to compile, edit, and contribute. Thank You John!!

Best, Dean





.

[John Davis]

The search continues but the gun remains elusive.

[John Davis]

Had a couple of inquiries about the Fred Kimble book. I truly appreciate that there is still some interest in the book but unfortunately I sold my last copies a year or so ago. Don't presently have any plans for a reprinting. They do, however, show up on ebay every now and then.

Bill asked about my search for Kimble's B grade, which hasn't surfaced yet. Nor have I been able to locate anymore of the Kimble documented Parker's (other than the two I own). However, as a result of that search, I have accumulated 5 of his oil paintings and an original copy of "Fred Kimble, Master Duck Shot." There were only 50 printed and of those only about 14 are known to have survived. Certainly more out there but it is the rarest of the Hazelton books. The point is, these quests can sometimes mushroom and take you in directions you had not planned.

[Michael Moffa]

Tony and Lou are good people. I've done business with them on numerous occasions and have always been treated fairly.

Spin

[Mike Franzen]

Had a couple of inquiries about the Fred Kimble book. I truly appreciate that there is still some interest in the book but unfortunately I sold my last copies a year or so ago. Don't presently have any plans for a reprinting.

I have a signed copy I’ll let go for $10,000.00.

[John Davis]

$10,000.00. Now that's funny.