Not so typical GHE?

[Jared Valeski]

Here's one I picked up with a few other collectible guns. I don't think there is Parker letter available. The vent rib is numbered underneath the rib and matches the gun. 32" Damascus barrels. Anyone have an idea how many were made like this?

[Jared Valeski]

More pictures...

[scott kittredge]

i should have grab it, if its the same gun and i am sure its is. can't be more than 1 of these :crying: very nice scott

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Nice gun!

[Rich Anderson]

I saw one at Puglisi's several years ago. If memory serves it was a DH 12.

[Bill Murphy]

Wonderful scarce gun. Looks like it was made on a non vent rib frame, maybe at the time of its original manufacture.

[Paul Ehlers]

You need a letter on this one. The serialization book only has one 206xxx serial number in it.

[Jared Valeski]

The rib is numbered underneath just like a CHE vent rib gun and a GHE vent rib gun that I have access to. You have to tilt the guns just right with a light to see the numbers. As far as I know there is no Parker or Griffin & Howe letter available, but my eyes and experience tell me this gun was born with the vent rib. It does have a curved rib extension and top frame area. This radius looks to be less curved than a standard rib gun but not as flat as most vent rib guns I have seen. I have more pictures available. 32" barrels choked IM & IM ... A fairly late Damascus barreled vent rib GHE trap gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Yes, a vent rib Damascus gun is a nice and rare find. And it is always neat to see a vent rib gun without a btfe.

[Dean Romig]

Anyone have an idea how many were made like this?


Outrageously few!!

[Chris Travinski]

That's a late serial number for damascus barrels isn't it? It's uncommon for sure, and I like it.

[Bill Zachow]

Note the hand engraved barrel logo. Could not run it through the roll stamp, as the pressure would crush the rib between the posts. That is one neat gun.

[edgarspencer]

Note the hand engraved barrel logo. Could not run it through the roll stamp, as the pressure would crush the rib between the posts. That is one neat gun.
I believe ordinarily, the rib was roll stamped prior to going on the gun.

There is a great deal of information In George Madis' about Winchester roll stamps. They employed several engravers whose only job was engraving the roll dies. That had to have been a tedious job, since the letters, in reverse, were the high points and the balance was removed.

[Rich Anderson]

Look at stock number 1057 at www.pugsguns.com a DH 12 damascuss on a #2 frame with the vent rib. I'm sure this is the same gun I saw several years ago as the price was $9500 now reduced to $7450. Mfg in 1895. When was the vent rib first offered? I thank my pocketbook it's a 12 not a 16:)

[Pete Lester]

Beautiful gun. The dealer's pictures of it did it no justice. I think I recall their description stating the gun as "loose" or off-face. Is/was it? Looks good in the pictures.

[Dean Romig]

I believe ordinarily, the rib was roll stamped prior to going on the gun.



That would have been impossible on this vented rib as the rib was drilled for the posts and this required hand engraving as evidenced by the tops of two of the posts having been engraved with the rib logo.

[edgarspencer]

That would have been impossible on this vented rib as the rib was drilled for the posts and this required hand engraving as evidenced by the tops of two of the posts having been engraved with the rib logo.

That's why I said 'ordinarily' i.e. conventional rib.

The gun at Puglisi looks like a swamped rib.

[Rich Anderson]

According to TPS the vent rib was first offered on an AH gun in 1923, there was a prototype in 1922. If this is indeed the case wouldn't the rib on the Pugs gun have been installed post production as it was made in 1895? The gun mentioned here falls into the correct time table for the vent rib but why the posts?

[Dean Romig]

Wasn't John Dunkle's Great-Grandfather's fabulous trap gun the very first vent rib gun made by Parker Bros.?

[Rich Anderson]

I believe TPS lists the serial number of the AH gun that had the rib. I didn't write it down however.

[Dave Suponski]

Dean, I believe it is.

[Tom Pollock]

Added a few pics of my original high condition ventilated rib Parker. If you look close you can see the pins. I believe this is common on all ventilated rib Parkers.

[edgarspencer]

Jared's Damascus barreled vent rib gun may have been hand engraved, either in the worded area and posts, or entirely (though I doubt that) but Tom's gun looks too uniform to have been hand engraved. Thinking like an engineer (or, more to the point, a retired engineer) It would seem very logical to me to drill the rib, silver solder the posts in, and then roll stamp it, before attaching it to the barrel.
Simmons ribs, either supplied attached by Winchester, or sold separately, were fully finished prior to attaching to the barrels. I have a new Simmons rib for a Model 42, unattached, but with posts. The pressure of the roll die is so great, it surely would have deformed the barrel, had it been rolled after attaching.

[Dean Romig]

I don't understand.... Tom's rib only shows the rib matting which was never hand engraved in its entirety along the whole rib. It's the logo or legend that may or may not have been hand engraved.

[edgarspencer]

Perhaps it was I who misunderstood your post. I think it's a hand engraved legend on the damascus barrel also. One thing that makes me think that is the presence of guide lines above and below the lettering, to guide the engraver.
What I thought you were suggesting was that because of the drilled holes for the pegs, the whole of the rib was hand engraved. As I said before, I believe the process would have had the pegs silver soldered in, and dressed down, then the matting was applied, I believe also by a roll die. The blank space is all part of the roll die that does the matting. The lettering was likely hand engraved due to not having a roll die for the lettering because of the flat rib (the roll die for a swamped rib would have a radius to it's cross section, and the lettering would have to be very deep in the center, for the top and bottom edges to also be impressed)and because the gun was so much later than previous damascus barreled guns, with, no doubt, swamped ribs.
I'd like to see the lettering on other flat ribs, steel barreled or otherwise. If there were enough of them, one would presume there was also a lettering die for flat ribs. What is the earliest serial numbered factory flat ribbed gun?

[Tom Pollock]

I have a soft spot for ventilated rib Parkers and have owned numerous ones over the years, all different shapes and sizes. I've added a few pics of the barrel flats on my vent rib G grade. It has the same engraving guidelines as Jared's gun. My gun is in the 226XXX serial range. I think Jared's gun is an important find in the Parker collectable community and looks 100% correct to me.

[edgarspencer]

Tom, it clearly looks like a hand engraved rib (lettering) to me also. This confirms my thinking that Parker didn't have a roll stamping die for flat ribs.

[David Noble]

I'm not sure whether Parker marked the vent ribs with roll dies or hand engraving, but the standard ribs, including flat ribs, were roll stamped for the maker markings and barrel steel. The matting was machine cut one line at a time with a special matting machine and indexed over the proper amount for the next line. The matting machine was designed with a cam plate that raised and lowered the single point cutter to create the blank window around the lettering.

[David Noble]

I reread my above post and realized the way I worded it made it sound absolute. Actually,the single cutter rib matting machine was eventially replaced. Does anyone know when that took place or whether the new machine was a rolling type machine?

[Bill Murphy]

I believe the single line matting machine was used to the end. Maybe someone could link the American Machinist article that I mentioned earlier. It explains the machine and the procedure and has pictures of the barrel making machines including the rib matting machine. You can get the article on books.google.com. American Machinist, Volume 39, pages in the mid 40s. Interesting reading. I mentioned it on the first page of the "Variations in Ribs" thread. Apparently, my reference to the article didn't result in anyone finding it. Maybe someone will find it with the new information I have provided.

[scott kittredge]

Do we know how many vent rib guns were made and how many for each grade?? :corn: scott

[David Noble]

Here are some pics from the American Machinist article of 1913 including text describing the procedure.
Here is the link. There is a good deal of info on the milling of the barrels and lugs also, just scroll up in the article a bit.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1rJMAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=parker+rib+matting&source=bl&ots=CSQ_Ebi7zP&sig=TbwIHHps-QDU08NwIWGTXGJM94I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GzwtUejZMumu2QWc_4GoAw&ved=0CGQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=parker%20rib%20matting&f=false

[Bruce Day]

I have several times before posted photos of a 12ga CHE Bernard with Bernard ventilated rib. It is the only one I know of, but of course there could be more.

There are a number of damascus barreled guns with vent ribs. From what I have seen, the guns were originally made before vent ribs were available, then returned to Parker for addition of the rib when they began to be offered.

Doc Drew shows a rib milling machine above. The classic double with the most complex rib matting that I know of is the Lefever.

[Dave Suponski]

David, I would love to have a hard copy of that article but I can't get it off the site.

[David Noble]

Dave, I couldn't get it off the site either. I used my cell phone to snap some pics off my laptop screen! I tried to find a vendor that had a copy but no success to date.

[Bill Murphy]

I believe the single line matting machine was used on vent rib guns with pins attached. I find it hard to believe that the pins were dressed and engraved after the installation of the rib. What is the opinion of other posters? Second question; why are some pins more visible than others? Is this a result of a repair job with the rib being separated from the pins? Every pin on Jared's gun is quite visible, although well aligned. Has this rib been removed from the pins at some time in the past? By the way, Jared's gun, the Puglisi gun, the gun pictured by Bruce Day, seem to be about all of the composite steel vent rib guns out there. There must be more. Where are they?

[MARK KIRCHER]

go easy on yourself Scott - No one just grabbed this gun. It was a war of bids! I was a casualty. Congrats to Jared!

[Kevin McCormack]

According to TPS the vent rib was first offered on an AH gun in 1923, there was a prototype in 1922. If this is indeed the case wouldn't the rib on the Pugs gun have been installed post production as it was made in 1895? The gun mentioned here falls into the correct time table for the vent rib but why the posts?

Factory-installed prototype vent rib guns were seen way before 1922. I believe there was an article in Double Gun Journal years ago about a very unusual vent rib gun down in the 171XXX range that also had a "rippled" pistol grip trigger guard (grooved to fit the fingers). My BHE pigeon gun SN 183562 had a factory vent rib with BTFE as well as a SFE, built in the 1917-18 timeframe.

[David Holes]

This gun was hard to put a value on. A few of us, PGCA members bid on the gun. I happened to be runnerup, and was glad to let it go at that price. If it would of had a trap stock, higher comb, I believe there would have been more interest.

[Dean Romig]

A very unusual vent rib gun down in the 171XXX range that also had a "rippled" pistol grip trigger guard (grooved to fit the fingers).

Yes, that is John Dunkle's great-grandfather's fantastic AAHE Double Trap gun that I mentioned earlier in this thread. And I believe it was the very first vent-rib gun produced by Parker Bros.






.

[Jeff Kuss]

My VHE vent-rib gun has no posts visible on the top of the rib. My DHE vent-rib gun shows every post.

[Robin Lewis]

David, I would love to have a hard copy of that article but I can't get it off the site.

Dave, I tried to get a good copy off the Google link and its not possible. BUT, I did search for it and it is available through the inter library loan system. There is a copy near me in the University of New Hampshire library, I suspect you can get it through your local library via the loan system or at a nearby college of engineering. You are looking for Volume 39.

[Scott Janowski]

All the Vent Rib guns I own are hand engraved on the rib. I have both VHE and GHE guns this way.

[Bill Murphy]

You are referring to the legend, I assume. If some say the matting was done "off the gun", then how is the matting done on the posts? Are the posts installed before the rib is put on the gun?

[greg conomos]

241,412 DHE splinter FE 12ga.

No pins. No inscription. Just a flat rib with wavy lines. Guess they gave up by that point.

[Bill Murphy]

I think the pins are there, just well integrated into the matting. I may be wrong, however.

[greg conomos]

My eyes ain't what they used to be. I'm fairly sure there is a gun there - that's all I'll promise.

[Brett Souder]

Hi Greg, could you please post a picture of the barrel inscription of 241,412 ? Thanks

[greg conomos]

You mean on the top of the rib? There is none.

[edgarspencer]

You mean on the top of the rib? There is none.

Which is what one would expect of a Remington era gun. I thought it was fairly evident in your picture.

[Brett Souder]

I did not realize that the barrels and rib would not have any exterior markings. That's the first Remington erra vent rib that I have seen. Thanks for the reply.

[Scott Janowski]

I think the rib matting was cut not pressed,that is why they could do that after the rib was installed.

[Bill Murphy]

Scott, thank you for reminding me that rib matting is cut, not pressed. The inscription on solid ribs is pressed. By the way, yesterday was test fire day for the GHE Damascus vent rib gun. What a gun! Jared and Tom had shown me the gun a couple of times last year, but I couldn't pull the trigger until it went to auction. The gun has the characteristic factory overbore to .740, and chokes of .040 and .044.

[Bill Murphy]

Edgar and I both forgot that the rib matting is cut and not pressed. The rib on the GHE in question is apparently either original to the gun or installed very early in vent rib manufacture. I say this because the breech end of the rib is unlike any Parker vent rib I have seen. Not just unusual because it is installed on a curved breech receiver, which is fairly common, but the rib itself has a completely different treatment of stippling and engraving. I wish I had Kevin's very early BHE vent rib gun to compare.

[Dean Romig]

The stippling without the 'wedge' on the ramp is something I have seen on a few Parker vent rib guns.





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[Scott Janowski]

Here a few pictures of my Vent Rib Guns. The posts are not easily visible. there are two posts on my 30" GHE barrel set that you can find if the light is right, other than that you can not see them. In the last few pictures you can se the shadow of the post reflecting on the barrel, but you can not find it on the rib.
These pictures are from my VHE Trap gun, and my GHE Trap/Skeet Factory two barrel set.

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20047_zpslzldcbj3.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20047_zpslzldcbj3.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20046_zpsdu56r7jo.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20046_zpsdu56r7jo.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20045_zpslhreigrl.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20045_zpslhreigrl.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20044_zpswfbwlopo.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20044_zpswfbwlopo.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20043_zpszticsadb.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20043_zpszticsadb.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20042_zpsgtlujz9b.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20042_zpsgtlujz9b.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20041_zpspsvdd20a.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20041_zpspsvdd20a.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20040_zpsmjvv9oh5.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20040_zpsmjvv9oh5.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20039_zpsy14hogr5.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20039_zpsy14hogr5.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20038_zpsnclkiqd7.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20038_zpsnclkiqd7.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20037_zpsaqevxbvb.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20037_zpsaqevxbvb.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20036_zps3mk5leki.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20036_zps3mk5leki.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20035_zpsjmjtxvz4.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20035_zpsjmjtxvz4.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20034_zpslukuvyi2.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20034_zpslukuvyi2.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20033_zps6kmkqsi5.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20033_zps6kmkqsi5.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20032_zps2efimsrz.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20032_zps2efimsrz.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b421/twoatlow8/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20047_zpslzldcbj3.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/twoatlow8/media/Parker%20Vent%20Rib/winchester%20deer%20047_zpslzldcbj3.jpg.html)

[Dean Romig]

The legends definitely look to have been engraved on both guns... I can't say the same for the matting, but they too, may have been engraved.





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[greg conomos]

Are the wavy lines 'matting'? If so, I don't believe it is engraved. First, you can see some 'ghost' lines where the dies didn't quite line up. No one would engrave like that. Second, it would drive any human crazy to engrave that many squiggly lines...especially on a lower grade gun.

[Scott Janowski]

I think all wavy lines on all Parkers were cut by the machine not "Pressed" in.
If you read the description on how the rib matting machine works it states that it cuts the lines.
They could roll stamp the parker name on the solid or concave rib guns, however with no support on the Vent Rib guns they had to hand engrave it. It also states in the machine description that the name was rolled onto the rib before the matting was cut and there is an adjustment on the machine to stop the lines from cutting the rolled on name.
It looks like they stopped engraving on the later guns to cut costs.

[Scott Janowski]

The curved rib extension tells me the gun went back and had the rib added at a later date.
All the guns that I have seen with a Vent Rib that factory letter have a flat rib extension.

[tom leshinsky]

Doesn't someone here know who has the original Parker matting machine? If so lets just ask him. and settle the issue of cutting or pressing

[Bill Murphy]

There are matting machines out there, in use. Unfortunately, Edgar and I had forgotten that they were cutters, not pushers. It's hell getting old. It is debated whether the first factory vent rib Parkers were built on standard frames or flat frames. If we can put enough early vent rib guns together, we may answer the question. The Valinski Damascus gun is so early and so different from other vent rib guns (at the breech), that I am guessing that gun was made as a vent rib gun. I am also guessing that the McCormack BHE may have been made as a vent rib gun, maybe the first one, because of certain features and items of provenance.

[edgarspencer]

Jeez, I'm forgetting stuff right and left.

[Dean Romig]

Ask your wife - she'll tell you "It's right where you left it."

:corn:






.

[Scott Janowski]

Anyone know how the rib matting on the repros was done?

[Christopher Lien]

I did not realize that the barrels and rib would not have any exterior markings. That's the first Remington erra vent rib that I have seen.
Thanks for the reply.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Brett,
Don't believe everything you read and hear. There were a few rib anomalies with Remington era Parker's, some of which occured during the transitional period from Meriden to Ilion late 1937 into 1938...

The 32" VHE Vent/Rib Trap in the image below is one example. A full-house gun in the high 240 serial range, this Rem/Trap is marked "PARKER" on the frame bottom, but rather than a later unmarked top rib, it carries the earlier "PARKER BROS. MAKERS. MERIDEN. C.T. U.S.A. VULCAN STEEL" inscription on top Vent/Rib...

If I remember correctly there were not many of the 32" lower grade traps. I believe TPS chart indicated there were only 18 VHE models produced, and many more DHE's, but that total number may have changed since being published years ago... Someone here may know?...

Best, Chris ~ CSL
___________________________


http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1REM_VHE_Vent_Trap99.jpg
____________________________________


.

[Bill Murphy]

Chris, who is that guy? Is that his gun?

[Randy Davis]

[QUOTE=Christopher Lien;189954]---------------------------------------------------------------

Brett,
Don't believe everything you read and hear. There were a few rib anomalies with Remington era Parker's, some of which occured during the transitional period from Meriden to Ilion late 1937 into 1938...

The 32" VHE Vent/Rib Trap in the image below is one example. A full-house gun in the high 240 serial range, this Rem/Trap has "PARKER" marked on the frame bottom, but rather than an unmarked top rib, it carries the earlier "PARKER BROS. MAKERS. MERIDEN. C.T. U.S.A. VULCAN STEEL" inscription.

If I remember correctly there were not many of the 32" lower grade traps. I believe the chart indicated there were only about 18 VHE models produced, and many more DHE's, but that total number may have changed since being published years ago... Someone here may know?...

Best, Chris ~ CSL
___________________________


http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1REM_VHE_Vent_Trap99.jpg
____________________________________


./QUOTE]

Chris, what a great piece of advertising... Champion Live bird & Trapshooter Harvey McMurchy
Thanks for sharing...
Randy Davis

[Christopher Lien]

Chris, who is that guy? Is that his gun?

----------------------------------------------

Bill, NO, the VHE is not the gun in the photo, and that "guy" is NOT who most folks think he is ~ (Sorry Dr. Drew)...

The 32" VHE Vent/Trap Gun shown in the previous photo was discovered disassembled hidden away in a basement wrapped in old linens, the separated pieces in various cases and boxes. Overall, a Parker that had been dormant for many years. An additional set of shorter barrels, and some interesting TrapShoot related memorabilia discovered later is what made the story surrounding this particular Parker a little more interesting. Research on this one continues...

I have entered a new realm with our "Original" old photo collection. High resolution restoration of 100+ year old photographs continues to reveal details never before seen. The enlarged poster size photo above showing the early competition shooter with his trophies, is a good example of secrets later revealed... Many things are possible when you Own the original image.

Randy, Check your PM's...



Best, Chris ~ CSL
_________________________________

.

[Scott Janowski]

Nice VHE Trap! I also have one of the 18, shot it today. Boy they are sweet! So who is in the picture?

[Dave Suponski]

Yup, I shot one of the 18 today too! Awesome gun!

[Bill Murphy]

I used to shoot one of the 18, but I thought my friend Mr. Suponski needed a boost in his scores, so I let him have it for a while.

[Daryl Corona]

I am fortunate to be in the esteemed "only 18 VHE Trap w/32" barrels" club but I don't know the secret handshake yet.:bowdown:

Mine has the somewhat rare ball grip. What does yours have Dave?

[Brett Souder]

I'm beginning to think that there are more than 18 of these guns.

[Dave Suponski]

Pistol grip Daryl.