VH 20 cut barrel

[Weston Croft]

I just received a VH 20 #105771 from Galazan that was described as 26" with skt/skt chokes. That # is not in the serialization book but there were a lot of 26" VH made around that period. As it turns out, the barrels are 25 7/8, the wavy rib lines run to the end of the muzzle, and by their own brass gauge the chokes are cylinder. Oh yeah, it's also clearly butt heavy when balanced on the pin. Other than that, it's a delightful little 6lb package.

I intend to send it back but I just had to ask if there is any way those barrels aren't cut?

[Dave Suponski]

Weston,Could you post some photo's of the muzzles?

[Bruce Day]

1. You know at the outset that a 1901 gun is extremely unlikely to have correct Sk and Sk chokes. You know its either bored out or cut from 28's to have those chokes. Most guns from that period had 3-4" choke constrictions, so if they are cut 28's, you should have some choke.

2. Although not in the SN book, you know at the outset that a research letter is available, and people often contact Mark ( tele from roster) to get the specs before they buy a gun. Get a research letter and then you will know.

3. Its not at all uncommon that barrels will have been dropped at some point and the muzzles dented. The muzzles are often ground ( dressed) to take out the dent. If the rib end has a very narrow end space, as many do, the space can be ground out. Look at the rib keels. Are they intact? Its not very difficult to grind out 1/16 or 1/8 to take out a dent. Even so, the keels should still be intact.

4. Butt heavy can be an indicator of cut barrels but not necessarily. Just as waterfowlers sometimes wanted muzzle heavy guns, upland game hunters sometimes wanted butt heavy for a fast swing. I have one like that. Not all Parkers were balanced at the hinge.

[Weston Croft]

I was suspicious of the skeet chokes but hoped that they were a result of being opened which I find desirable. I also expected that if cut, Galazan would say so.
Anyway, here are the pics and thank you for your opinions:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=47&pictureid=347

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=47&pictureid=346

[Bruce Day]

Cut.

Look at the barrel ends. They should touch.

You can see the inner ends of the keels.

The rib is way wide of normal at the end.

I'm cautious about stating something which is debatable or hinges on being able to see the gun in person, but there is no question that these are cut.

Cut barrels and cylinder bores does not necessarily mean the gun has no purpose to a grouse hunter or skeet shooter, some prefer it. So a person has to ask themselves if the price is right and they want the gun.

[Greg S. Phillips]

Non disclosure of cut barrels warrants a return, and refund of your return shipping. Nothing wrong with a cut barrel gun, but failure to disclose this is poor practice by any seller. This should include individuals or dealers.

[Jay Gardner]

Regarding the use of a brass bore gauge from Galazan, I have been told that they will not accurately measure Parker chokes because the actual chokes end too far down from the muzzle. any truth to that?

[Weston Croft]

I don't know about that but I have tried the gauge on an 870, 1100, and Merkel sxs, and in none of those cases did it agree with the stamped choke. My guess is that it is best used as a sort of yes/no gauge as a choke indicator.

[Dean Romig]

Weston, there are surviving factory records on Parker No. 105771 to support a Research Letter. You may find that your gun went back to the factory to either cut or trim/dress the barrels. The keels are in tact and look like original or a very skilled professional job. I don't think anybody's trying to fool anybody. There are plenty of Parkers out there with documented factory-cut barrels. Even if a letter can't support the shortened barrels - do you like the gun the way it is? Will it serve your intended purposes? Knowing that the barrels are not the same length as the gun was regulated with, will he allow you to check it's POI on a pattern board? Maybe it's a keeper after all...

[Bruce Day]

See TPS pp. 199, 201 and figures for cut end explanation.

The keels are long, tapering, triangular inserts. When "intact" a person sees only the end face of the keels fully filling the opening between the barrels and the ribs. As the keel is cut back, more of the solder shows between the keels and the ribs/barrels, and you often see little wedges inserted in the space also. The keels I have seen were 3 or so inches long, so the barrels would have to be cut at least that not to have any keels left at all. The keels are inserted at manufacture to regulate and position the barrel ends.

That said, I am not a barrel rebuilder nor a barrel cutter, and maybe somebody who as actually taken barrels apart has a different/better explanation. I have seen plenty of barrels with the ribs removed for relaying.

[Bill Murphy]

Throw the choke gauge back in the drawer and request a PGCA letter. The order may tell you what the original chokes were and maybe, if you're lucky, whether the factory had anything to do with the cutting of the barrels or the modification of the chokes. If the barrels turn out to be cut, you may be able to get Tony to negotiate the price. However, I would bet you're near the end of your three day inspection.

[Bruce Day]

This gun was listed by Galazan at $2,750 and the website says 26" and sk & sk, which of course they are. The place I see most lower priced guns is the big Tulsa gun show in the spring, and they didn't have any 20ga Parkers of quality there last spring for under $4000and I saw only a handful of those. We used to see many decent Parkers V 20's for $2500 but I haven't seen that in several years. Maybe the $2,750 price was an accurate representation of value?

The Tulsa show is the only gunshow I attend so maybe I'm not the most current on values. Maybe this gun would be a candidate for those new Galazan barrels if a person did not want the 26" open chokes?

Added:
I was curious about current prices, so I checked Guns International. Most of the V 20's are at $4000 to $5000 asking price. Steve Cobb does have a little VH 20/26 IC& Mod that seems decent at $3100, seemingly a very reasonable price. I haven't seen a clean 20 that low in a while.

[Don Kaas]

Kevin sold a rather decent 30" VHE 20g O frame for me at the Vintagers this year for $2750 (to Ivory Beads so it must have been cheap!). I bought it online for $1250 a year ago. It needed the barrels reblued and some screws fixed. They are out there... just one man's recent experience.

[Dean Romig]

26" and sk & sk, which of course they are.

That is certainly open to interpretation. In my opinion cyl & cyl doesn't equate to skeet & skeet. The bores haven't been mic'ed to determine if there is any constriction at all and true skeet chokes have measureable constriction. Nevertheless, it may still be a decent woodcock and early season grouse gun.

Asking price vs. sell price is usually seperated by a significant margin. $2750 would seem a fair value for this gun, considering the barrel issue, if there are no other issues besides normal wear.

Just my H O

[Bruce Day]

Steve Barnett has a nice little VH 20/26 for $2950. Still more than Don's but it has been repeatedly established here that nobody acquires guns as inexpensively as Don. Don has the knack somehow.

I'm just glad to be out of the market, but I do have a long list of wanteds for friends if I run across decent guns. Let's see now, how many on the list for 16 and 20 ga hammer guns?

[Weston Croft]

To wrap up, I got a return authorization from Lou today and he'll have it back in hand next week. As expected, no problem.

It is a delightful, tight little gun, and probably a fair value and one that I would like to have been able to keep but just couldn't. No harm done.

While we're on the subject, the barrels were refinished as expected from their pictures. The finish seemed to be more of a satin black than a rust blued type. Is that a different technique?

[Bruce Day]

Yes, and a poor one at that resulting from inadequate polishing or failing to go through the right sequence of coarser to finer grits.

You have just encountered two reasons why original condition and configuration Parkers are held in high esteem. Find yourself a gun that hasn't been messed with, or if messed with, done properly, which is always more expensive, time consuming or require greater skill than many gunmanglers have or people looking to make money on a quick turn are willing to spend.

I have seen lots of frosted and dull barrels and its very apparent that a bad reblue job was done. May I suggest making the acquaintance of a good PGCA member who knows Parkers and having him help find a gun for you? Come to Vintagers, Sanford, etc and get somebody to recommend a gun for you. I see you are in Atlanta, we have some members who know their Parkers in Georgia. On the plus side, bad reblues are not fatal and there are Parker qualified gunsmiths who can do a good job, $250 was a price I heard.

[Dave Suponski]

Weston,Thanks for the update.Remember..like women.. half the fun is in the chase.:rolleyes: and also like women..When ya find a good one they,re a keeper.:)

[Brian Dillard]

Weston,Thanks for the update.Remember..like women.. half the fun is in the chase.:rolleyes: and also like women..When ya find a good one they,re a keeper.:)

UH....Did someone say Tiger Woods???? Currently at a stable of four:rotf:

[Pat Dugan]

Several years ago Galazan had a VH O frame 16 Ga with 28 inch barrels, it had a Parker D grade stock on it. Price $2800. It sold and was put back on the web site several weeks later for $2200 after being returned. I called them and the chokes were IC and Mod. Made them an offer of $1800 and they accepted. It was what I wanted and I know some of the PARKER purists would throw rocks at me for buying it, but I have not seen one since in as good of condition for less than $3000. You just have to be happy with your purchase even if it is not 100% original. Galazan even told me if I was not happy at that price, please return it. With 1000's of guns going thru their store they cant be sure of everything but they will try to make it right.

PDD

[Dean Romig]

Remington Parkers blueing finish was generally somewhat coarser looking than the finer sheen of the Meriden Parkers' blueing finish. All in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[Francis Morin]

An old friend and hunting companion inherited a family AH Fox grade BE 12 gauge- ordered in 1915- double triggers, ejectors, half grip stock-- with 30" Krupp Flusshall barrels- from V, L & A--LOM case, the whole pre-War (well, for the USA anyway) package- gun has never been altered, the barrels measure 29 & 1/2" dead money, whether from muzzle to breech or breech to muzzle- chambers are 2 & 5/8" and chokes are .020" right barrel (front trigger) and .030" left barrel (rear trigger)- gun shoots to POA at any set distance on patterning boards- and throws uniform patterns with older paper shells in No 4, 5, 6 and 7.5 shot sizes, ditto with the RST and Fiocchi loads of today. How did the order for a gun with std. 30" long barrels come through with barrels one half inch shorter, yet still shoot and pattern like the proverbial "house afire"? You tell me!!:cool: