Airline ammo woes

[Richard Flanders]

I was checking into United Airlines yesterday in Detroit. I had 28# of a grand mixture of 10, 12, and 20 ga paper shells that I had collected at the Novi show over the past two years. I had no venison to bring home this year so decided to bring the ammo back. The "lady" behind the counter was taping my cooler up and asked what was in it so I told her just stuff and some ammo... she stood up quickly and asked "how much" to which I said, I don't know. She asked if it was over 11# and I said I hadn't weighed it.... big mistake.... B I G mistake. She made me get it all out of the cooler and weigh then, all proud of herself for doing such a thorough job, made me pare it down to 11#(save for the one box of old 10's under some clothing). Sadly, since there was no option for me, they confiscated and disposed of about 14# of nice old paper ammo. I was ready to bite someone's(guess who's)head off and was livid for the rest of the day. Sure ruined my day. I only lost one gorgeous old box of 10's that I had traded off Destry; the rest was mostly 12 and 20, some of which wouldn't even go off.... but the 10's....what a sad loss. I never should have told her what was in there and learned a valuable lesson, which I'm sure you all can take a guess at. I can't imagine who the pinhead bean counter was that came up with the 11# number. A tragic loss. So... be careful when checking ammo into the airlines. I had 45# when I came south and no one ever asked how much and TSA could care less because it's an airline rule not a TSA rule. They just check for proper packaging, which all mine had. I'm gonna be peeved about this for some time and feel like a criminal for causing the destruction of such valuable history. I think I'm the biggest moron of all in this event and feel like holding a wake...

[Dean Romig]

By the stroke of the pen they turn us all into criminals . . .

How sad.

[Dave Fuller]

Sorry about that Rich. I've stopped flying with ammo, it just creates all kinds of problems. Its gotten hard enough to fly with guns. I had some 23-year old woman "checking" to see if my .30-06 was unloaded the other day, she didn't even know how to open the bolt.

[Don Kaas]

5 kilos of small arms ammunition has been the accepted international and domestic rule for many years. It must also be in manufacturers or similar containers. I've traveled with more (a bit more) many, many times but this time Richard pushed the envelope a bit too far.

[Trigg Davis]

Rich,

I am sorry to you had that experience. United's definiton of "the freindly skies" must not refer to ammmunition. I have worried about that 11 pound limit because I kowa lot of airlines have it.

Dave,

I had an experience a little like yours where a young woman told me I could bring the shotguns, but that I had to remove the firing pins which is not something I was in a postiiton to do in the check in line.

I think I convinced her that rule did not apply to shotguns but for a moment I was concerned.

Trigg

[Mike Shepherd]

I had some 23-year old woman "checking" to see if my .30-06 was unloaded the other day, she didn't even know how to open the bolt.

I had a middle age TSA lady check my gun here in Amarillo. She opened up the case, looked at the old double, and asked "Where do the bullets go?"
Boy do I feel safer.

Best,

Mike

[Richard Flanders]

Don: thanks for the info on the 5kilo limit being the standard. I had not heard that number before and was going to research it but no need now thanks to you. I'm sure they gave a one-eyed chimp with cataracts a dart and spun a target with numbers on it and had him throw the dart to get that number....

The TSA genius who looked at my two Parkers in a double case opened it and looked at the rubber banded bundle of rooster tail feathers and said, "what are these?".... I felt so much safer! He had NO IDEA what he was looking at. Both butts and both barrels were in socks. He just fingered things and obviously had no clue what he was looking at. He loosened straps and didn't fasten anything back up tight enough. I had to re-do everything he touched before I could close or I would have had a scrambled mess at this end. What a joke. You'd think that TSA would at least give a bit of training on the various types of guns. I have nothing but good things to say about the Ziegel Engineering case I borrowed from Trigg. They beat the snot out of the corners and dent it mightily but I've not seen a damaged gun part inside yet. This is the 6.25"x9.25"x34" clamshell type case that holds two butts, 2 S/S bbls and 1 O/U bbl or an additional small ga S/S bbl. I put cleaning stuff, snap caps, oil and grease bottles, swab, brush, and patches and such in the O/U slot. There's a good thick divider between where the butts and the bbls go that prevents them from contacting each other. It's most definitely the best aluminum case I have seen... MUCH better than the flat style case I got from Cabelas.. M U C H with a capital M. The interior is lined with tacky looking synthetic carpet like material but it all seems to work well if you put every piece in a good guns sock. I am going to get one this winter for sure. I got my 2-bbls set 28 Repro and my 10ga in it for the Canada trip with Trigg. With two doubles in it + the accessories, it weighs just under 30# which is much better than a Tuffpak which would weigh over 40# with all that in it. I'd highly recommend these Ziegels for anyone looking for a good travelling case. They have a good website.

[Brian Dillard]

I traveled to Scotland last month for a 10 day Stag hunt with my .300 WIN Mag. TSA in Denver opened the case, touched the stock, closed the case then x-ray'd the whole thing. Upon the x-ray they re-opened the case to see a small bottle of cleaning oil (hello, it rains alot there)...the early 20's technician promptly grabed it with a gloved hand and threw it into a box marked "Hazerdous Materials"!!:rotf:

[Kevin McCormack]

Amazing! The variation in counter service and TSA attention to detail across this nation is nothing short of a patchwork quilt of knowhow and attention to jog details. We just returned from 4 days in Texas quail shooting. At BWI airport in Baltimore, the young guy at the Southwest Airlines counter spied our guncases, handed the 4 of us firearms declaration cards to fill out and insert in the cases, then asked us to lock them as he watched. Never inspected the guns but did look for ammo in the cases (a BIG no-no), then told us to hang out in case the TSA boys/girls needed for us to unlock a case for some reason. Never happened.

At Oklahoma City, guncases came up on the baggage carousel like all other luggage. On our return flight, same quick and efficient weapons check and registry card fillout. When we got back to BWI, baggage but no guncases on the carousel. We had to go to the baggage "Special Handling" area, show picture ID and baggage claim stubs. I have noticed this phenomenon for years (e.g., taking guns to the Vegas show) - going West, piece of cake; going East, they are suddenly deadly weapons again. What gives?

[Bruce Day]

This is gun country out here. Its normal. I even hear that back there, some politicians are against guns.

[Frank Srebro]

I flew with friendly United last month to/from deer hunting in Saskatchewan and learned on arrival in SK that United had implemented a new poilcy whereby antlers, capes, hides or meat cannot be handled as baggage. No discussions and no exceptions. They didn't want to hear the other major carriers (Nothwest and Air Canada) have no such restrictions. Hunters who had deer trophies to bring home were left hanging and their only option was to leave the antlers and capes in SK for mounting and air freight delivery months from now. That was my first and will be my last trip with United anywhere. Frank

[Brian Dillard]

Ive got two more for you. This month while travelling to the Czech Republic to hunt Row Deer and Boar these happened.

1- TSA in Denver asked me to pack my ammo with my gun in the case and lock it in their presence for my flights over. On my return flight, TSA in Detroit freaked out when they opened my case thru customs and found my ammo in the case with the gun!! Funny thing is I flew through Detroit on the way over also...and the ammo was in the same case with the same gun just like TSA told me to do it.

2- I had to get a permit from the Netherlands to "have a gun in the country", even though all I did was fly thru Amsterdam with a gun in the baggage compartment of the plane. It was never in my posession and I didn't even know where it actually was!

[Tom Carter]

If you plan on traveling by air with firearms check out e-cfr.gpoaccess.gov, Title 49 Transportation, Part 1544.203. You should make a copy of this and carry it with you. The TSA agents must comply with these regulations the same as passengers. If the agents don't comply, you should request a supervisor and don't be surprised if the supervisor doesn't know the rules. You may have to show your copy of the regulations (very politely). If the agents ask for your key to the gun case you should not give it ot them but open the case for them, as the rule requires. You should never surrender the key or combination. Also, there is no TSA regulation prohibiting ammunition in the gun case. The airline may prohibit it, but TSA does not.

Cheers, Tom

[Richard Flanders]

Good info Tom. Thanks. Frank: I think UA will not be getting any of my money in the future.

[Bob Brown]

The attitudes towards guns can be even more extreme in eastern and western Canada. When the federal government of the time pushed through the long gun registry, backed mostly by the eastern provinces of Quebec and Ontario, my province of Alberta went to the Supreme Court trying to block it. When they lost they flat out refused to charge or prosecute anyone in provincial court over unregistered long guns. Federal courts might still try you, but they won't get support from the province.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The rules are interpreted differently everywhere you go. I've had my gun case come around on the belt on almost every international shooting trip I ever went on. But both times on my recent Arizona trip I had to go to the baggage office to get it.

The best one was coming back from Northern Ireland a couple years ago. It actually didn't come around on the belt when I got back into the US. I went to the baggage office and they didn't know where it was either. I walked back to check the belt again and happened to notice it laying in the floor in front of the oversize luggage counter with not a soul in sight. My duffle bag was half again as long as my breakdown guncase and three times as thick, but it came on the belt just fine.

My other favorite is the time I'd flown into Baltimore for a trip on the Eastern Shore. In those days I just used a big hard sided suitcase that had a combination lock as a guncase. The guy at the counter said that it wasn't technically a guncase and that I couldn't use it for the flight even though I'd obviously flown out there with it on the same airline. I called for a supervisor and the whole deal but nobody would budge. To solve the situation they forced me to buy a guncase from them for $200. It was a lightweight plastic piece of crap that I've never used since though this was over 10 years ago. I continued to use my big suitcase for several years after that with no problems whatsover. Finally the gorillas in luggage managed to rip off the wheels and handles so I moved on to something else.
Crazy.....

Destry

[Tom Carter]

I think the big problem with TSA is their training. I talked to a TSA Captain, shift supervisor, who told me he had never actually read the rule about surrendering the gun case key. As with most government organizations, the employees know only what they are taught by their trainer. If the trainer does not know something, none of the students learn it unless someone points it out to them. I have given TSA emloyees a copy of their regulations and they say they have never read or even seen them. Also, trainers some times put their personal spin or feelings on issues and the employees never know the difference. Cheers, Tom

[John Dallas]

Has anyone else been able to access the Govt site noted above?

cfr.gpoaccess.gov, Title 49 Transportation, Part 1544.203.

I'm doing something wrong

[Dean Romig]

Also, trainers some times put their personal spin or feelings on issues and the employees never know the difference. Cheers, Tom

That is the problem. Especially in today's educational systems, both public and private, a teacher or trainer is allowed to put his or her own spin on anything. All they need is the 'captive audience' before them and their word is 'gospel'. Sad.

I'll step down from my soapbox now...

[C Roger Giles]

That personal spin thing is every where and covers every subject, the latest and most heated is the health care bill that the senate is wheeling and dealing on at present. I have never heard so many cock and bull stories from indivduals in my life. I attempt to stay abreast of what is happening but have not actually seen any real written down facts of what is go8ing into the bill. I do not think we will ever know until it is time to call on it for my or wifes need of it. Yuk what a mess. I might add gun control along the same lines.

[Robin Lewis]

I found it at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/CFR/retrieve.html
and fill in "title" 49, "part" 1544 and "section" 203

[John Davis]

Bruce, I think you mean "up there."

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, I think you mean "up there."

Yup John, sadly - you're right :(