Upgraded Parkers, Lesson 1

[Mark Ouellette]

Upgraded Parkers, Lesson 1

While checking the Parkers on Gun Broker I noticed a AH 20 gauge starting at $20,500.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328726594

That’s a lot of money but it is an AH in 20 gauge, or is it? The first thing I did was check the serial number against the PARKER SERIALIZATION AND INDETIFICATION book. The Gun Broker add incorrectly lists the SN as 212204 but check the photos and you will see SN 204212. “The Book” lists it serial number 204212 as a VH. Indecently, the book is available from Amazon.com for $32;
http://www.amazon.com/Parker-Identification-Serialization-Charlie-Price/dp/1886768374/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360442996&sr=1-1&keywords=Parker+Identification

I then checked the photos closely and noticed Vulcan Steel on the barrel top rib. Then I read in the listing that “It has the marking of world renowned engraver Angelo Bee on the bottom, near the trigger guard.” I do not think that a famous engraver would start with a high grade gun. Look at an A grade Parker and you will notice that there is no room to engrave anything else!

Here is the add:
“Alright! Here we go!! I expect a lot of emails on this gun and a lot of opinions - I accept and respect them all! This auction is for a Parker, Grade 6 (AH), side by side shotgun chambered for the 20 gauge shell. It is serial #212204 making it's manufactured date in 1923! This BEAUTIFUL gun has the most amazing engraving that I have ever seen on a gun. The wood is exquisite with very fine checkering. It has the marking of world renowned engraver Angelo Bee on the bottom, near the trigger guard. It is a great gun overall. I will be adding information to the listing as I learn it. This gun has some small usage marks on it as can be seen in pictures, but still a fantastic gun for your collection!”

So this was listed as an AH 20 grade but it is actually a VH which was upgraded by Angelo Bee (unconfirmed) and marked as AH on the action's water table.

I have nothing for or against this gun but before I would give over $20,000 for any gun I’d certainly want to know what it is really worth. Maybe an Angelo Bee engraved gun is worth the money, maybe.

The moral of this lesson is to buy The Book! It will be the best $32 you ever spent.

Mark

[greg conomos]

Really, one look at that gun and there is no need to look it up in the book. It's unfortunate a seller feels the need to refer to an upgraded V grade as an A grade but anyone spending $20K or more on a Parker should have enough knowledge to know it is not a proper A grade.

It would be like buying a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado and then being amazed to learn the bull horns screwed to the front of the hood are not OEM.

[allen newell]

It would be like buying a classic Buick only to discover it's really a Nash Rambler underneath!

[Daryl Corona]

Good eye Mark. Also note missing forend loop on forend lug and no reinforcing screw through the front of the beavertail. You can get a hell of an original Parker for that price.

[Dave Noreen]

Anyone wanting to fake a Quality 6 Parker Bros. wouldn't leave Vulcan on the barrel rib and have Angelo Bee sign the engraving!! There are a lot better fakers out there then that!!

[Mark Ouellette]

Guys, notice photos 35 and 36 which show AH stamped on the water table. The gun is a fake albeit a poor one!

The second lesson is that there are gun sellers who will say anything to sell you a gun!

[Daryl Corona]

Yep, there's a sucker born every minute.

[E Robert Fabian]

I realy like those barrel wedges.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Mark, I saw the gun the other day, knew it was one of those 60's upgrades. Gary

[Mark Ouellette]

Gary,

I looked at this Parker and while knowing it was an upgrade I ran it through the process described in my first post to figure out what it really is. Then I thought why not share the process and tool (The Book) with the new guys. There are many lurkers out there reading and learning from the information we share. Eventually they will join us in the discussions.

Mark

[Brian Dudley]

I contacted the seller on this one about a week ago. I sent him a photo of the serial number book page showing the factory data on the gun. Also I pointed out the things about the gun that tell it is not a genuine AH as here are a few glaring features. He appreciated the info and mentioned that he was passing the info on to the owner since it was a consignment gun.

A nice looking custom gun, but I don know about $25k nice.

[George M. Purtill]

OK an upgrade is an upgrade, not something I would ever buy.
BUT when you change grade markings on a gun that is involved in interstate commerce- to me that is fraud. Thats my opinion.

[Rich Anderson]

It looks like a Pachmyer upgrade. I have seen this somewhere befor. I don't know about the price if its out of line or not. Seems to me there was a 16ga upgrade listed in the for sale section for $20K

[paul stafford jr]

when i here of things like this it makes me sick. these fakes make all of us who want to sell a real high grade gun looked bad. the gun should have been listed as a custom. perhaps the seller was taken and is trying to re-coup his loss. i'm with george on this one. a old friend told me years ago , "before you buy a gun buy a book"

[paul stafford jr]

the few pachmyer customs i have seen all had there name engraved and gold filled.

[James Palmer]

Looked at this one today....any thoughts. It started as a VH 16 I think.

[Mark Ouellette]

James,

I would need better photos to give an opinion.

Any upgrade would have an artistic value but little to no collector value. How much is the artistic value worth? That is up to you and whoever else appreciates the beauty of it.

If the subject gun of this thread is indeed an Angelo Bee engraved Parker then it has extra value because of that. The same goes for the Pachmyer upgraded Parkers.

Back to #204212, that engraving and stock work would cost more than $12000 plus the cost of the gun. Lets say at $15000 to have a gun like that done but add a little more because it is an Angelo Bee gun.

The gun you posted is a maybe $2500 (more if its a 0 frame) VH 16 with $xxxx worth of engraving. If you love the engraving then it is worth the total cost to you. It is probably not worth that too someone who does not love the engraving. Why? Because the next guy could get the same gun with same engraving for the same cost. Or, for that same cost could have something special engraved for them.

Mark

[edgarspencer]

There's a notable difference between an upgrade and a fake being peddled as an original. A fake would certainly not be signed by a contemporary engraver, even if he was talented enough to replicate original engraving exactly. That Parker clearly doesn't resemble any original Parker, doesn't match 'the book' unaltered barrel marking of a grade 0 gun, and signed. What does smack of a poor attempt to fake is the remarking of the water table.

My other gun love are special order lever guns by Winchester. I have studied them for 50 years and the enjoyment is based on the huge numbers out there, and the seeming endless varieties, especially in the 1894.
This gun was upgraded, and being sold as such, by an incredibly talented engraver who works for Tiffany. His workmanship exhibited on this gun is as close to original Winchester work as I have ever seen. Neither he, nor the man who contracted the work, smacks of fake, as he signed his work, and dated it.
I spent a lot of time examining this gun, and when I saw the signature, I asked him who J. Lowe was, and he replied "Me". Up until that point, I never detected anything that said 'not Winchester'. Even the finish is what one would expect to see on a 110 year old rifle.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328762667
Subsequently, I saw an Ithica Flues, done by Lowe for his wife, who soon after passed away from cancer. That gun, too, was beautiful.

[Rich Anderson]

Mark the gun you showed is engraved by Angelo Bee weather this adds any value or not is debatable.

I have a couple of upgrade/custom Parkers the first and formost is Gunner's Parker a custom gun I did for me and me alone. If I needed to sell this tomorrow (oh the horror!) would I get my money out of it...probably not. The Hollywood gun is't factory either but it follows Parker lines as does the recent AAHE 28.

IMHO IF your going to buy/build a non factory Parker or any other gun for that matter the first person it must satisfy is the one shelling out the cash, resale is not something to be considered. I believe I can get my money back and maybe some more from either the Hollywood gun or the AAHE 28. Gunner's PArker is special to me and me alone and I'm fine with that.

Don't let the beauty of an upgraded gun cloud you sense of value. Each gun should be based on the merits of the base gun then consider the nice engraveing and pretty wood.

[Paul Harm]

I wonder if the selling post has been changed since Mark has shown the gentleman the errors in his post?

[Russ Jackson]

Gentlemen ,I generally stay out of these types of discussions ,but I also sell as a hobbyist on Gun Broker so ,I will voice an opinion for what it's worth ! I have looked over the ad many times and I just don't find fault with this seller ,seems to me ,he said it was an A Grade but goes on to list as being engraved by Angelo Bee ,any one spending $20,000.00 Plus on a Parker would know Angelo wasn't an " In House Engraver " at Parker Brothers ! When I list a gun ,I am very critical of the gun and make the most honest attempt at advertising it as what it is and agree ,a simple description of the Gun being an" Upgrade " in his Post would have rectified any question ,but I don't believe he was being fraudulent ,Just My Honest Opinion ! As for Upgraded Guns , I agree with Rich ," Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder " A while back ,I purchased an Upgraded 410 ,that was advertised as such ,the Gun belonged to Otis Odum ,and was Upgraded by Runge ,Del Grego ,and stamped as such ,it is Upgraded to a BHE and started life as a VHE 410 , I also have a letter from Larry ,that the work was done in their shop ! To be quite honest ,I never thought I would buy an Upgrade either but just fell in love with this gun and realized ,I would never find the only BHE 410 or be able to afford a BHE Factory 410 if I did find one but with some Trading etc. ,I am able to own what I feel is a Gorgeous Gun that I enjoy carrying and also admire the engraving and upgraded wood each time I get it out of the safe ! Again ,Just my Thoughts !

[George M. Purtill]

I think is wonderful that people like upgrades. To me its a tragedy when people upgrade something that is rare to begin with.
Upgrading a VH 12- OK go for it.
Upgrading a AAHE into a Tsar's Parker- that is heresy.
Upgrading a 410 of any grade is a shame. If it's already done, so be it and buy it like Russ did.
That is my personal philosophy. We are the Parker Gun Collectors Association and there is a lot of room in the word Collectors.

But... This is my line in the sand. [People with sound minds will differ and I respect that.].....
When original markings such as grade or serial numbers are changed or altered, then it is not an upgrade, it is a fake.
All the disclaimers on paper mean nothing. The papers are not cemented to the gun.
Thats my opinion.

[Russ Jackson]

George ,I totally agree ,Twenty Two Years ago ,I bought an Austin Healey 3000 MK III in outrageously poor condition ! It probably should have been made into a parts car but ,after purchase ,I spent nearly five years bringing it back to as close to correct as I could even though most of my car nut Buddies thought I should " UPGRADE " to a Chevy 350 and a Mustang suspension chopped to fit with Four Wheel Discs would have been Fantastic ! If the car had been a running example and Rust Free ,I wouldn't have touched a thing ! By the way ,I drive it regularly " Except Winters " and still own it !

[George M. Purtill]

Russ- Thats is the cats ass. You have fine taste my friend.

[Rich Anderson]

Can we go Grouse hunting in it? Daisy would love the wind in her face:) All BS aside it's a nice car and I thank my lucky stars I'm not a car guy, I have enough problems with rifles and shotguns:rotf:

[greg conomos]

Regardless of Angelo Bee's involvement, the seller is calling the gun an A grade which it is not and never will be. That's maybe short of fraudulent but it certainly falls into the 'shady' category.

[allen newell]

George had it right. Upgrade a gun or car or whatever if that's your fancy. But truth in disclosure is important when it comes time to sell it. The gun should have been marked accordingly so there would be no question as to what it has become and what it really is.

By the way, the Austin Healey 3000 is quite nice.

[Rick Losey]

Russ - every time you bring that Healey up it almost makes me regret trading mine for kids

:violin:

[Russ Jackson]

Russ - every time you bring that Healey up it almost makes me regret trading mine for kids

:violin:

Rick ,One nice thing about the Healey , I can send it out for service when it misbehaves ,KIDS ................? Other than that ,the Kids Got it beat by a mile ! :)

[Bill Murphy]

How many kids can I trade for a nice restored 3000? If it only takes a couple, I may start working on a new batch.

[Daryl Corona]

Is'nt it a little late for that Bill? I traded a mint BMW 2002 for mine. No regrets but I would love to have that car back. Wife wanted a 4 door sedan instead of the 2 door Beemer to make access to the back seat easier to load the car seat in for the kid.:crying:

[George M. Purtill]

I am proud to say I sold NOTHING to get kids. I sold the following to get MARRIED:
Scuba tanks
1929 AA Ford with express body- remember John Boys truck in the Walton's TV show?
1951 Chevy 21/2 ton flatbed State of NH truck- mint original
Remington 700 BDL Varmint rifle in 22-250.

Kids cost nothing to get. Wife cost alot.
Kids cost lots to maintain!

[Russ Jackson]

My Neighbor ,still has his 1955 Thunderbird ,he bought when the Baby was due ,He tells the story about his Wife being madder than a Hornet and wanting a bigger car and he says no way was that Thunderbird going any where ,and it still hasn't !

[Daryl Corona]

I am proud to say I sold NOTHING to get kids. I sold the following to get MARRIED:
Scuba tanks
1929 AA Ford with express body- remember John Boys truck in the Walton's TV show?
1951 Chevy 21/2 ton flatbed State of NH truck- mint original
Remington 700 BDL Varmint rifle in 22-250.

Kids cost nothing to get. Wife cost alot.
Kids cost lots to maintain!

George;
Wives cost A LOT more to get rid of. Keeping them is a bargain.:nono:

[Tom Carter]

Our daughter came over 2 months early. She spent almost a month in an incubator. I had to sell my hunting rifle to get her out of the hospital. It was a Remington 721 in 270 Winchestor serial number 271200. She's near middle age and I tell her now that I should have kept the rifle. Cheers, Tom

[George M. Purtill]

George;
Wives cost A LOT more to get rid of. Keeping them is a bargain.:nono:

An old adage among us who do divorces for a living: "Why do divorces cost so much? Because they are worth it."

[Bill Murphy]

Linda wants me to sell the 460 Country Squire, but I keep telling her that we'll need it when the kids start coming.

[Dean Romig]

Our daughter came over 2 months early. She spent almost a month in an incubator. I had to sell my hunting rifle to get her out of the hospital.


You're too honest Tom. Forty years ago when I had nothing to sell so that I could bring my young wife and new baby home from the hospital I went to the hospital bursar's office and handed the lady an expired Blue Cross card (Yes, I knew it was). When the hospital telephoned a few days later demanding payment I said I couldn't pay right away but I could bring the wife and baby back if they insisted.... :whistle: